myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum: Charging batteries

Author

Message

Windsurfer
Captain
Captain

Joined: 07 April 2010
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 190

Posted: 27 July 2010 at 10:55

As I was planning to install an additional 200-300 Ah battery bank for the inverter use - i guess the only way to go is the secondary charger totally disconnected from the starting bank...question is - can I actually load the alternator so severely, should I replace it with a 100+ Amp alternator or maybe even install a secondary on a longer V-belt???

How does the smart charging system look like??

Hanse 320 #079

IP Logged

nickfabbri
Commander

Joined: 21 April 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120

Posted: 27 July 2010 at 12:23

With the sterling system, there are separate outputs for charging the domestic and engine battery, I think that these operate independantly ( although I may be wrong). This would not allow the overcharging of of one battery I think. It would seem a complete oversite on the part of sterling if the 4 stage smart charger in the 320 only allowed both batteries to be charging simultaneously. I have 220 ah of domestic and 70 or so for the engine. And like everyone else our domestic drain is huge ( nav, windlass, fridge full of beer etc).
Can someone confirm that the Stirling system does or doesn't allow separate charging.
As for experience; we have sailed our 320 for 2 and a half years with no battery problem so far.
Windsurfer; have you considered solar or wind gens if your power requirement is so high? Extra batteries will really add extra weight, although you may get the shower to drain properly if you do :)

Nick71

IP Logged

shaukaas
Captain
Captain

Joined: 04 August 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168

Posted: 27 July 2010 at 13:45

Unfortunately I'm back at work this week - no more sailing except for the remaining weekends of the season. However, I did 750 nm this summer - so I'm fine.

The battery charge indicators/LED bars are just simple voltmeters. When the chargers is hooked up to the grid; it will output something between 13.5V - 14.8V. This equals to all LEDs lit. So: Whenever charging all LEDs should be lit.

The Sterling CED chargers do have three separate outputs; but these are just electrically separated by diodes - and not physically separated. Also, there is only 1 charging controller - so all batteries has to be of the same type. Open lead/acid is the simplest and cheapest.

The charger will always start up in the "boost" mode; and will switch to float when the charging current stabilizes. This is one of the best chargers available on the market, and it should easily be able to charge up a extra set of batteries - but it would take some more time.

I would recommend everybody to install a Ah-meter, to get full control over the energy use on board. This is the only instrument being able to give a realistic picture.

S/Y Nadun - Hanse 320#171
LG3600 - NOR13510

IP Logged

Windsurfer
Captain
Captain

Joined: 07 April 2010
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 190

Posted: 28 July 2010 at 02:09

Thanks for the input Shaukaas, I'm still confused about all the indicators lit at all times...either the batteries are about to die or the charger is doing something wrong - simply keeps permamently cooking the both banks...I have disconnected and tested the batteries - they show very high volts even when seriously loaded so what's the reason for cooking them all the time???

I will definitely install the Ah-meter and possibly even a more sophisticated battery monitor - when I buy real marine (possibly gel-cell) expensive banks I don't want the charger to ever dare to cook them...

What does it mean when you say not physically separated...so the diodes do not actually separate them??? what is that "intelligent battery separator" that you've installed??? Do you have a temp sensor on the banks???
Ok...Provided I got you correctly if there's one controller means I cannot charge different types (for examle lead-acids and gel-cells) with a single charger....so I need a secondary charging unit??? Or I should have the same batteries everywhere - this is too expensive I guess..

Any pictures are appreciated Shaukaas...I guess this isn't just my problem - eveyone wants know how it should look like...

Nick - according to Shaukaas they're not totally isolated so Iguess you're wrong...
Yes I think of installing the solars and possibly wind or towable water generator...the later appeals me more as it's absolutely quiet, powerful, doesn't require a mast and doesn't self-distruct in high winds...it's also good when apparent winds are weak (heading downwind) - the windgen won't spin but the watergen will...As for the banks - yes it will be somewhat heavier - I will just dump one person ashore and yes my shower will drain like a dream Wink

Hanse 320 #079

IP Logged

Andrew
Sub Lieutenant

Joined: 20 October 2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14

Posted: 28 July 2010 at 08:30

Originally posted by Windsurfer

Thanks for the input Shaukaas, I'm still confused about all the indicators lit at all times...either the batteries are about to die or the charger is doing something wrong - simply keeps permamently cooking the both banks...I have disconnected and tested the batteries - they show very high volts even when seriously loaded so what's the reason for cooking them all the time???

What does it mean when you say not physically separated...so the diodes do not actually separate them??? what is that "intelligent battery separator" that you've installed??? Do you have a temp sensor on the banks???
Ok...Provided I got you correctly if there's one controller means I cannot charge different types (for examle lead-acids and gel-cells) with a single charger....so I need a secondary charging unit??? Or I should have the same batteries everywhere - this is too expensive I guess..

Nick - according to Shaukaas they're not totally isolated so Iguess you're wrong...

Hi Windsurfer

I cooked my batteries when I connected my solar panel directly to the batteries. After installing a voltage regulator that kept them under control

Sounds as if your battery charger is set to high. Can you measure the voltage at the output from the charger before connecting it to your batteries.

The diodes electrically separate your batteries but not galvanic separated. that means that the silicon substrate of the diode makes a very high resistance in one direction and a very low resistance to current flow in the other direction. However there is still a galvanic connection and current does flow in the reverse direction but it is so small, typically 1 or 2 mA. You can have your battery connected for 6 months and lose less than half a volt.

IP Logged

shaukaas
Captain
Captain

Joined: 04 August 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168

Posted: 28 July 2010 at 14:58

I do not think you should consider the LEDs as a piece of advanced instrumentation; use a good quality voltmeter instead. They are for a quick indication only.

What are the voltage you get when you measure the batteries directly?

It is also natural for open lead/acid batteries to "cook" when they are charged; just be sure to refill with destilled water whenever needed. Compared to a start-battery in a car, a consumption bank in a yacht have a different usage pattern.

Originally posted by Windsurfer

I will definitely install the Ah-meter and possibly even a more sophisticated battery monitor - when I buy real marine (possibly gel-cell) expensive banks I don't want the charger to ever dare to cook them...

What would be the more sophisticated solution to this? Keep things simple, and reliable. Enjoy sailing!!

Originally posted by Windsurfer

What does it mean when you say not physically separated...so the diodes do not actually separate them??? what is that "intelligent battery separator" that you've installed??? Do you have a temp sensor on the banks???
Ok...Provided I got you correctly if there's one controller means I cannot charge different types (for examle lead-acids and gel-cells) with a single charger....so I need a secondary charging unit??? Or I should have the same batteries everywhere - this is too expensive I guess..

The diodes are just giving the batteries an electrical separation; so if your charger gives a 14.4V voltage; all batteries connected will get the same charge voltage.

The intelligent battery separator is this one: Pro Split R

I have a temperature sensor from the shore-power charger, and also from the "intelligent" voltage regulator on the generator: Sterling PDAR.

Yes - you will have to have one battery charger for each different type of battery technology to get an optimal solution. However, you may be able to make up a mix as some of the batteries is chargeable on the same voltages. But again: Keep things simple. Open lead/acid is one way to keep things simple.

Originally posted by Windsurfer

Any pictures are appreciated Shaukaas...I guess this isn't just my problem - eveyone wants know how it should look like...

There is not much to take pictures of; the products are mostly "bolt on" - and the wiring is impossible to "read" from any pictures. Please tell me what you specifically would like to see pictures of; and I'll do my best to help you out!

S/Y Nadun - Hanse 320#171
LG3600 - NOR13510

IP Logged

Windsurfer
Captain
Captain

Joined: 07 April 2010
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 190

Posted: 28 July 2010 at 23:01

Wow...and you're telling me "keep things simple", Stian?? Wacko

I guess your system is just as sophisticated as it gets...Pro digital advanced regulator, the 0 volt drop splitter....2 different chargers, multiple temp sensors...some indicator panels as well I suppose...To keep things simple and reliable you probably need to dump all that stuff incuding sevice batteries ashore and really enjoy sailing Wink

I guess it's not that easy to enjoy sailing without some minor and major improvements...my boat is missing lots of important items...even the galvanic isolator isn't there - Hanse didn't install them in 2008...

I would love to have a system similar to yours but it seems like I cannot simply copy things...It's really hard to get Sterling products in Russia and i will have to find solutions from other brands...what can you say about Victron energy??? I can recieve ordered things much faster and cheaper...

The isolator I was thinking of -

http://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/argo-fet-battery-isolators/

The battery monitor -

http://www.victronenergy.com/battery-monitors/bmv-600s%20and%20bmv-602s/

The battery protect -

http://www.victronenergy.com/battery_protect/battery-protect/

And some other solar stuff - the 30 watt panel and a duo controller...

Of course i will need a galvanic isolator as well...unforunately victron doesn't have any...

Why do I need the pictures??? It's just much easier to understand what you're talking about...to see the models and makes, to see the place of installation and to get the idea of how to arrange things is just a matter of a single glance... sometimes even no comments are required...

As for what I'd like to see in particular - where did you install all those chargers,regs,isolators...I'd love to see how you routed the wiring...where you installed the indicator panels...at least an overview of it all...
I bet everyone wishes to see how the super-boat should look like...

Thanks for your great help...

Edited by Windsurfer - 28 July 2010 at 23:02

Hanse 320 #079

IP Logged

Andrew
Sub Lieutenant

Joined: 20 October 2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14

Posted: 29 July 2010 at 07:48

Windsurfer

You are confusing galvanic separation with electrical separation. At the end of the day they are almost the same thing. A galvanic separation is actually physically separating the wires with a switch of some kind (normally a relay). The separator you indicated will work but it will not have the smart charging characteristics of the sterling separator.

The sterling will put full charge from the Alternator into the starter battery only for the first 4 minuets after starting the engine, then it will switch to putting full charge into the domestic battery for approximately 15 minuets then it will slowly decrease the rate of charge going into the domestic over the next 2 hours at which point it simply keeps the domestic toped up. While all the time keeping the starter batter just toped up.

The Sterling costs about 250 Euro so if the price difference is less than 100 Euro I would go for the Sterling.

I have mounted mine in the stern locker which is about 2 meters from the batteries.

Andrew

IP Logged

320
myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum : Hints and Tips : 320

Author	Message
Windsurfer Captain Joined: 07 April 2010 Location: Russian Federation Online Status: Offline Posts: 190	Posted: 27 July 2010 at 10:55
	As I was planning to install an additional 200-300 Ah battery bank for the inverter use - i guess the only way to go is the secondary charger totally disconnected from the starting bank...question is - can I actually load the alternator so severely, should I replace it with a 100+ Amp alternator or maybe even install a secondary on a longer V-belt??? How does the smart charging system look like??
	Hanse 320 #079
	IP Logged

nickfabbri Commander Joined: 21 April 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 120	Posted: 27 July 2010 at 12:23
	With the sterling system, there are separate outputs for charging the domestic and engine battery, I think that these operate independantly ( although I may be wrong). This would not allow the overcharging of of one battery I think. It would seem a complete oversite on the part of sterling if the 4 stage smart charger in the 320 only allowed both batteries to be charging simultaneously. I have 220 ah of domestic and 70 or so for the engine. And like everyone else our domestic drain is huge ( nav, windlass, fridge full of beer etc). Can someone confirm that the Stirling system does or doesn't allow separate charging. As for experience; we have sailed our 320 for 2 and a half years with no battery problem so far. Windsurfer; have you considered solar or wind gens if your power requirement is so high? Extra batteries will really add extra weight, although you may get the shower to drain properly if you do :)
	Nick71
	IP Logged

shaukaas Captain Joined: 04 August 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 168	Posted: 27 July 2010 at 13:45
	Unfortunately I'm back at work this week - no more sailing except for the remaining weekends of the season. However, I did 750 nm this summer - so I'm fine. The battery charge indicators/LED bars are just simple voltmeters. When the chargers is hooked up to the grid; it will output something between 13.5V - 14.8V. This equals to all LEDs lit. So: Whenever charging all LEDs should be lit. The Sterling CED chargers do have three separate outputs; but these are just electrically separated by diodes - and not physically separated. Also, there is only 1 charging controller - so all batteries has to be of the same type. Open lead/acid is the simplest and cheapest. The charger will always start up in the "boost" mode; and will switch to float when the charging current stabilizes. This is one of the best chargers available on the market, and it should easily be able to charge up a extra set of batteries - but it would take some more time. I would recommend everybody to install a Ah-meter, to get full control over the energy use on board. This is the only instrument being able to give a realistic picture.
	S/Y Nadun - Hanse 320#171 LG3600 - NOR13510
	IP Logged

Windsurfer Captain Joined: 07 April 2010 Location: Russian Federation Online Status: Offline Posts: 190	Posted: 28 July 2010 at 02:09
	Thanks for the input Shaukaas, I'm still confused about all the indicators lit at all times...either the batteries are about to die or the charger is doing something wrong - simply keeps permamently cooking the both banks...I have disconnected and tested the batteries - they show very high volts even when seriously loaded so what's the reason for cooking them all the time??? I will definitely install the Ah-meter and possibly even a more sophisticated battery monitor - when I buy real marine (possibly gel-cell) expensive banks I don't want the charger to ever dare to cook them... What does it mean when you say not physically separated...so the diodes do not actually separate them??? what is that "intelligent battery separator" that you've installed??? Do you have a temp sensor on the banks??? Ok...Provided I got you correctly if there's one controller means I cannot charge different types (for examle lead-acids and gel-cells) with a single charger....so I need a secondary charging unit??? Or I should have the same batteries everywhere - this is too expensive I guess.. Any pictures are appreciated Shaukaas...I guess this isn't just my problem - eveyone wants know how it should look like... Nick - according to Shaukaas they're not totally isolated so Iguess you're wrong... Yes I think of installing the solars and possibly wind or towable water generator...the later appeals me more as it's absolutely quiet, powerful, doesn't require a mast and doesn't self-distruct in high winds...it's also good when apparent winds are weak (heading downwind) - the windgen won't spin but the watergen will...As for the banks - yes it will be somewhat heavier - I will just dump one person ashore and yes my shower will drain like a dream
	Hanse 320 #079
	IP Logged

Andrew Sub Lieutenant Joined: 20 October 2007 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 14	Posted: 28 July 2010 at 08:30
	*Originally posted by Windsurfer* Thanks for the input Shaukaas, I'm still confused about all the indicators lit at all times...either the batteries are about to die or the charger is doing something wrong - simply keeps permamently cooking the both banks...I have disconnected and tested the batteries - they show very high volts even when seriously loaded so what's the reason for cooking them all the time??? What does it mean when you say not physically separated...so the diodes do not actually separate them??? what is that "intelligent battery separator" that you've installed??? Do you have a temp sensor on the banks??? Ok...Provided I got you correctly if there's one controller means I cannot charge different types (for examle lead-acids and gel-cells) with a single charger....so I need a secondary charging unit??? Or I should have the same batteries everywhere - this is too expensive I guess.. Nick - according to Shaukaas they're not totally isolated so Iguess you're wrong... Hi Windsurfer I cooked my batteries when I connected my solar panel directly to the batteries. After installing a voltage regulator that kept them under control Sounds as if your battery charger is set to high. Can you measure the voltage at the output from the charger before connecting it to your batteries. The diodes electrically separate your batteries but not galvanic separated. that means that the silicon substrate of the diode makes a very high resistance in one direction and a very low resistance to current flow in the other direction. However there is still a galvanic connection and current does flow in the reverse direction but it is so small, typically 1 or 2 mA. You can have your battery connected for 6 months and lose less than half a volt.
	IP Logged

shaukaas Captain Joined: 04 August 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 168	Posted: 28 July 2010 at 14:58
	*Originally posted by Windsurfer* Thanks for the input Shaukaas, I'm still confused about all the indicators lit at all times...either the batteries are about to die or the charger is doing something wrong - simply keeps permamently cooking the both banks...I have disconnected and tested the batteries - they show very high volts even when seriously loaded so what's the reason for cooking them all the time??? I do not think you should consider the LEDs as a piece of advanced instrumentation; use a good quality voltmeter instead. They are for a quick indication only. What are the voltage you get when you measure the batteries directly? It is also natural for open lead/acid batteries to "cook" when they are charged; just be sure to refill with destilled water whenever needed. Compared to a start-battery in a car, a consumption bank in a yacht have a different usage pattern. *Originally posted by Windsurfer* I will definitely install the Ah-meter and possibly even a more sophisticated battery monitor - when I buy real marine (possibly gel-cell) expensive banks I don't want the charger to ever dare to cook them... What would be the more sophisticated solution to this? Keep things simple, and reliable. Enjoy sailing!! *Originally posted by Windsurfer* What does it mean when you say not physically separated...so the diodes do not actually separate them??? what is that "intelligent battery separator" that you've installed??? Do you have a temp sensor on the banks??? Ok...Provided I got you correctly if there's one controller means I cannot charge different types (for examle lead-acids and gel-cells) with a single charger....so I need a secondary charging unit??? Or I should have the same batteries everywhere - this is too expensive I guess.. The diodes are just giving the batteries an electrical separation; so if your charger gives a 14.4V voltage; all batteries connected will get the same charge voltage. The intelligent battery separator is this one: Pro Split R I have a temperature sensor from the shore-power charger, and also from the "intelligent" voltage regulator on the generator: Sterling PDAR. Yes - you will have to have one battery charger for each different type of battery technology to get an optimal solution. However, you may be able to make up a mix as some of the batteries is chargeable on the same voltages. But again: Keep things simple. Open lead/acid is one way to keep things simple. *Originally posted by Windsurfer* Any pictures are appreciated Shaukaas...I guess this isn't just my problem - eveyone wants know how it should look like... There is not much to take pictures of; the products are mostly "bolt on" - and the wiring is impossible to "read" from any pictures. Please tell me what you specifically would like to see pictures of; and I'll do my best to help you out!
	S/Y Nadun - Hanse 320#171 LG3600 - NOR13510
	IP Logged

Windsurfer Captain Joined: 07 April 2010 Location: Russian Federation Online Status: Offline Posts: 190	Posted: 28 July 2010 at 23:01
	Wow...and you're telling me "keep things simple", Stian?? I guess your system is just as sophisticated as it gets...Pro digital advanced regulator, the 0 volt drop splitter....2 different chargers, multiple temp sensors...some indicator panels as well I suppose...To keep things simple and reliable you probably need to dump all that stuff incuding sevice batteries ashore and really enjoy sailing I guess it's not that easy to enjoy sailing without some minor and major improvements...my boat is missing lots of important items...even the galvanic isolator isn't there - Hanse didn't install them in 2008... I would love to have a system similar to yours but it seems like I cannot simply copy things...It's really hard to get Sterling products in Russia and i will have to find solutions from other brands...what can you say about Victron energy??? I can recieve ordered things much faster and cheaper... The isolator I was thinking of - http://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/argo-fet-battery-isolators/ The battery monitor - http://www.victronenergy.com/battery-monitors/bmv-600s%20and%20bmv-602s/ The battery protect - http://www.victronenergy.com/battery_protect/battery-protect/ And some other solar stuff - the 30 watt panel and a duo controller... Of course i will need a galvanic isolator as well...unforunately victron doesn't have any... Why do I need the pictures??? It's just much easier to understand what you're talking about...to see the models and makes, to see the place of installation and to get the idea of how to arrange things is just a matter of a single glance... sometimes even no comments are required... As for what I'd like to see in particular - where did you install all those chargers,regs,isolators...I'd love to see how you routed the wiring...where you installed the indicator panels...at least an overview of it all... I bet everyone wishes to see how the super-boat should look like... Thanks for your great help... Edited by Windsurfer - 28 July 2010 at 23:02
	Hanse 320 #079
	IP Logged

Andrew Sub Lieutenant Joined: 20 October 2007 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 14	Posted: 29 July 2010 at 07:48
	Windsurfer You are confusing galvanic separation with electrical separation. At the end of the day they are almost the same thing. A galvanic separation is actually physically separating the wires with a switch of some kind (normally a relay). The separator you indicated will work but it will not have the smart charging characteristics of the sterling separator. The sterling will put full charge from the Alternator into the starter battery only for the first 4 minuets after starting the engine, then it will switch to putting full charge into the domestic battery for approximately 15 minuets then it will slowly decrease the rate of charge going into the domestic over the next 2 hours at which point it simply keeps the domestic toped up. While all the time keeping the starter batter just toped up. The Sterling costs about 250 Euro so if the price difference is less than 100 Euro I would go for the Sterling. I have mounted mine in the stern locker which is about 2 meters from the batteries. Andrew
	IP Logged

Topic: Charging batteries
	<< Prev Page of 2