myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum: rod rigging

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gertha
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Joined: 03 June 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 223

Topic: rod rigging
Posted: 27 July 2010 at 21:46

Hello,
I am thinking of rod rigging.
However hard I wind the screws on the shrouds, the forestay is loose and the downwind shrouds flap.
I am thinking that rod rigging maybe the answer; but need more info.
The cost will be silly; but as Gerty will be doing an around the world the cost of keeping her mast up is not a problem.
S

It is an ancient Mariner,
And he stoppeth one of three.
'By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp'st thou me?
Or read our blog
http://blog.mailasail.com/gertha4

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Rubato
Rear Admiral

Joined: 12 July 2006
Location: Canada
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Posts: 586

Posted: 28 July 2010 at 01:28

Getting the forestay tighter is a hassle. I've been battling it on my 400 for sometime now too. However, my leward shrouds do not flap nor are very loose at all under any conditions. Perhaps rod rigging stretches a little less but quite frankly I don't think it's going to solve your problems.

Have you worked on your rig tensions with a Loos gauge and following the procedures found in the North document including forestay length?

One thing I did was shorten up the forestay from the recommended length and that helped a bit.

Steve

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Brightside
Captain
Captain

Joined: 07 October 2003
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 343

Posted: 28 July 2010 at 07:38

Hi Gertha.
A couple of thoughts.

Excessive backstay tension can cause the forestay and shrouds to slacken because as the pre-bend increases the mast point where the upper shrouds and forestay connect is drawn down, thus the forestay and shrouds slacken.

I did a 'Sailpower' course with Britannia Sea School a few years ago on Sigma 38. It was remarkable the benificial effect running backstays had on forestay tension/shape.

Hanse had a habit of supplying the forestay and toggle slightly too short and expected the commissioning riggers to try different length toggles at the stemhead to get the required aft rake. With a slight aft rake the mast could then be set up correctly to achieve pre-bend. Unfortunately nobody told the riggers this was needed!

Qu 1. Does your mast have pre-bend?
Qu 2. With the shrouds hand tight and no backstay tension does your mast have a slight aft rake?

Regards
Mike

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Alain & Anne
Commadore

Joined: 13 December 2005
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Posts: 376

Posted: 28 July 2010 at 18:48

Hi Gertha

Before any expensive solution I would suggest IMHO, you use the Selden procedure to tune your rig.
Our experience with Uhambo was the following.
The first year, the rig was "so called professionaly" tuned when commissioned and I payed for it of course! The first 3000 NM I had bad feeling with the mast pumping, and the rig slac on leewind...and so on.
The second year I decide to change the Facnor furler for a Selden 300TD, and I had talks with people from Selden, as we need to do calculation of the new rig with a 10mm dyform forestay in lieu of the 12mm standard.
They had given to me some advice to read and go through the Selden rigging manual.
I did it: I bought the harware 15€ overall and I managed to tune: it takes a while but it is worth it. At last I had to cut 100mm of the backstay after we fitted the isolators.
Since I have had no more issue with it and we sailed perfectly untill Cap Horn.

Hereunder pics from my diy gauge: that's 2m grp batten from big (very big?) catamaran mainsail

Alain

Edited by Alain & Anne - 28 July 2010 at 18:55

UHAMBO 430e#004
Our blog:uhambosaniez-uhambo.blogspot.com/

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Chris G
Commander

Joined: 23 March 2009
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 110

Posted: 29 July 2010 at 08:33

Hi Gertha,

We have a 411 with exactly the same problems as indicated by Alain above, right down to the need to shorten the backstay. In the end we went with an inner forestay and running backstays, and with a tune from a competent rigger the rig is now a dream. On my last ocean passage before the rig was modified (Tasman Sea, 1300nm) I got to the stage I couldn't bear to look aloft at the rig pumping. I agree also with the posts above that with a properly set up Seldon rig you should have no problems at all. Note also that rod rigging is v.expensive and on a double or triple spreader rig doesn't handle the punishment as well as wire.

Never an easy set of choices but peace of mind is essential doing offshore miles.

Chris G

H411 "Equinox"

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samuel
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Joined: 26 December 2004
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Posts: 223

Posted: 31 July 2010 at 08:31

have you considered the quality of the wire ?Perhaps a better wire with less elasticity could be the answer. Manufacturers do have tables showing this

I always thought that rod rigging was more suitable to a "rigid" mast system - ie masthead rig

Surely a Hanse mast is a " flexible " design ie bendy mast

If one wants to get varying degrees of tension on a rig ( as when creating bend with the backstay)I would have thought you would be better with wire which flexes to the bending etc

or if you really want to burn money - carbon fibre

Or is that rubbish

Anyone have thoughts?

Daydream Believer

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Chris G
Commander

Joined: 23 March 2009
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 110

Posted: 01 August 2010 at 21:18

Hi Gertha,

Another thought on your question - rod rigging is normally used in fairly high spec racing applications - my thought is that if it was really that good for production boats, everyone would have it. IMHO it is a matter of getting the setup of your Seldon rig right in the first place. If you don't have a copy, there is a really good explanation of rig dynamics in Nigel Calder's book "Boat Owner's Electrical and Mechanical Manual". It has a more straightforward discussion than the Seldon guide, and gives good pointers as to why things might not be working for you and when to yell for help. This book is the best money I have ever spent on boat maintenance (about USD 75) and if you are in the middle of nowhere with a problem, may save you.

Also speaking as an offshore cruiser, I'm not sure I would be building in a maintenance limitation with rod rigging. Not all riggers in out of the way places have the equipment or materials to repair a broken rod and rods show no indication of impending failure (often with stainless you will get some indication at the swages or with broken strands). IMHO (and because I am a simple unit) I reckon that if I can't fix anything which floats or moves me myself, then it shouldn't be on the boat.

Hope it all works out for you,

Yours Aye,

Chris G

H411 "Equinox"

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gertha
Captain
Captain

Joined: 03 June 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 223

Posted: 02 August 2010 at 21:04

Hello,
All good thoughts
The simple problem I have is my rig has done 20,000 nm, the rigging screws are nearly all on the stops, there is more play in the rigging than when she was new.
I can have the shrouds shortened, so I can get more tension; but I know the insurance company will soon be asking me to have the rigging checked.
Wether I like it or not in the next 18 months I will be up for some major expense in the standing rigging, so am thinking of trying to obtain best performance from a rigging upgrade.
So the question is if I go no expencess spared on a rigging upgrade will rod rigging be the answer.
I do except that in some parts of the world rod rigging cannot be repaired ; but as I will have a shed load of wire after refurb, is there any reason you cannot mix wire and rod for a tempory fix.
s

It is an ancient Mariner,
And he stoppeth one of three.
'By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp'st thou me?
Or read our blog
http://blog.mailasail.com/gertha4

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ernol
Lieutenant Commander

Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 50

Posted: 06 August 2010 at 12:41

Hi,

I think maybe rod rigging is overkill as you look how Hanse built the hull off a 400. If I`am not wrong there isn`t a steel frame laminated in the hull in connection with the undershrouds like you see on X yacht and Arcona. I think maybe the hull off a Hanse is flex too much to have the full advantage of rod rigg.

Erno

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Chit Chat
myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum : General : Chit Chat

Author	Message
gertha Captain Joined: 03 June 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 223	Topic: rod rigging Posted: 27 July 2010 at 21:46
	Hello, I am thinking of rod rigging. However hard I wind the screws on the shrouds, the forestay is loose and the downwind shrouds flap. I am thinking that rod rigging maybe the answer; but need more info. The cost will be silly; but as Gerty will be doing an around the world the cost of keeping her mast up is not a problem. S
	It is an ancient Mariner, And he stoppeth one of three. 'By thy long grey beard and glittering eye, Now wherefore stopp'st thou me? Or read our blog http://blog.mailasail.com/gertha4
	IP Logged

Rubato Rear Admiral Joined: 12 July 2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 586	Posted: 28 July 2010 at 01:28
	Getting the forestay tighter is a hassle. I've been battling it on my 400 for sometime now too. However, my leward shrouds do not flap nor are very loose at all under any conditions. Perhaps rod rigging stretches a little less but quite frankly I don't think it's going to solve your problems. Have you worked on your rig tensions with a Loos gauge and following the procedures found in the North document including forestay length? One thing I did was shorten up the forestay from the recommended length and that helped a bit. Steve
	IP Logged

Brightside Captain Joined: 07 October 2003 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 343	Posted: 28 July 2010 at 07:38
	Hi Gertha. A couple of thoughts. Excessive backstay tension can cause the forestay and shrouds to slacken because as the pre-bend increases the mast point where the upper shrouds and forestay connect is drawn down, thus the forestay and shrouds slacken. I did a 'Sailpower' course with Britannia Sea School a few years ago on Sigma 38. It was remarkable the benificial effect running backstays had on forestay tension/shape. Hanse had a habit of supplying the forestay and toggle slightly too short and expected the commissioning riggers to try different length toggles at the stemhead to get the required aft rake. With a slight aft rake the mast could then be set up correctly to achieve pre-bend. Unfortunately nobody told the riggers this was needed! Qu 1. Does your mast have pre-bend? Qu 2. With the shrouds hand tight and no backstay tension does your mast have a slight aft rake? Regards Mike
	IP Logged

Alain & Anne Commadore Joined: 13 December 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 376	Posted: 28 July 2010 at 18:48
	Hi Gertha Before any expensive solution I would suggest IMHO, you use the Selden procedure to tune your rig. Our experience with Uhambo was the following. The first year, the rig was "so called professionaly" tuned when commissioned and I payed for it of course! The first 3000 NM I had bad feeling with the mast pumping, and the rig slac on leewind...and so on. The second year I decide to change the Facnor furler for a Selden 300TD, and I had talks with people from Selden, as we need to do calculation of the new rig with a 10mm dyform forestay in lieu of the 12mm standard. They had given to me some advice to read and go through the Selden rigging manual. I did it: I bought the harware 15€ overall and I managed to tune: it takes a while but it is worth it. At last I had to cut 100mm of the backstay after we fitted the isolators. Since I have had no more issue with it and we sailed perfectly untill Cap Horn. Hereunder pics from my diy gauge: that's 2m grp batten from big (very big?) catamaran mainsail Alain Edited by Alain & Anne - 28 July 2010 at 18:55
	UHAMBO 430e#004 Our blog:uhambosaniez-uhambo.blogspot.com/
	IP Logged

Chris G Commander Joined: 23 March 2009 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 110	Posted: 29 July 2010 at 08:33
	Hi Gertha, We have a 411 with exactly the same problems as indicated by Alain above, right down to the need to shorten the backstay. In the end we went with an inner forestay and running backstays, and with a tune from a competent rigger the rig is now a dream. On my last ocean passage before the rig was modified (Tasman Sea, 1300nm) I got to the stage I couldn't bear to look aloft at the rig pumping. I agree also with the posts above that with a properly set up Seldon rig you should have no problems at all. Note also that rod rigging is v.expensive and on a double or triple spreader rig doesn't handle the punishment as well as wire. Never an easy set of choices but peace of mind is essential doing offshore miles. Chris G
	H411 "Equinox"
	IP Logged

samuel Captain Joined: 26 December 2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 223	Posted: 31 July 2010 at 08:31
	have you considered the quality of the wire ?Perhaps a better wire with less elasticity could be the answer. Manufacturers do have tables showing this I always thought that rod rigging was more suitable to a "rigid" mast system - ie masthead rig Surely a Hanse mast is a " flexible " design ie bendy mast If one wants to get varying degrees of tension on a rig ( as when creating bend with the backstay)I would have thought you would be better with wire which flexes to the bending etc or if you really want to burn money - carbon fibre Or is that rubbish Anyone have thoughts? Daydream Believer
	Daydream Believer
	IP Logged

Chris G Commander Joined: 23 March 2009 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 110	Posted: 01 August 2010 at 21:18
	Hi Gertha, Another thought on your question - rod rigging is normally used in fairly high spec racing applications - my thought is that if it was really that good for production boats, everyone would have it. IMHO it is a matter of getting the setup of your Seldon rig right in the first place. If you don't have a copy, there is a really good explanation of rig dynamics in Nigel Calder's book "Boat Owner's Electrical and Mechanical Manual". It has a more straightforward discussion than the Seldon guide, and gives good pointers as to why things might not be working for you and when to yell for help. This book is the best money I have ever spent on boat maintenance (about USD 75) and if you are in the middle of nowhere with a problem, may save you. Also speaking as an offshore cruiser, I'm not sure I would be building in a maintenance limitation with rod rigging. Not all riggers in out of the way places have the equipment or materials to repair a broken rod and rods show no indication of impending failure (often with stainless you will get some indication at the swages or with broken strands). IMHO (and because I am a simple unit) I reckon that if I can't fix anything which floats or moves me myself, then it shouldn't be on the boat. Hope it all works out for you, Yours Aye, Chris G
	H411 "Equinox"
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gertha Captain Joined: 03 June 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 223	Posted: 02 August 2010 at 21:04
	Hello, All good thoughts The simple problem I have is my rig has done 20,000 nm, the rigging screws are nearly all on the stops, there is more play in the rigging than when she was new. I can have the shrouds shortened, so I can get more tension; but I know the insurance company will soon be asking me to have the rigging checked. Wether I like it or not in the next 18 months I will be up for some major expense in the standing rigging, so am thinking of trying to obtain best performance from a rigging upgrade. So the question is if I go no expencess spared on a rigging upgrade will rod rigging be the answer. I do except that in some parts of the world rod rigging cannot be repaired ; but as I will have a shed load of wire after refurb, is there any reason you cannot mix wire and rod for a tempory fix. s
	It is an ancient Mariner, And he stoppeth one of three. 'By thy long grey beard and glittering eye, Now wherefore stopp'st thou me? Or read our blog http://blog.mailasail.com/gertha4
	IP Logged

ernol Lieutenant Commander Joined: 07 July 2006 Location: Norway Online Status: Offline Posts: 50	Posted: 06 August 2010 at 12:41
	Hi, I think maybe rod rigging is overkill as you look how Hanse built the hull off a 400. If I`am not wrong there isn`t a steel frame laminated in the hull in connection with the undershrouds like you see on X yacht and Arcona. I think maybe the hull off a Hanse is flex too much to have the full advantage of rod rigg. Erno
	IP Logged