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Lack of rudder pressure when sailing upwind

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SamsonII View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 June 2018 at 08:20
Hi,

This weekend I did my first real regatta with my boat.  And it perfomed well compared to other boats in our class (we ended as 2 in our class in Færdern).

But one ting I miss is a better "feel" of the boat going upwind through the forces in the wheel.  Even with several degrees of counter rudder the pressure is non existent.  If i let go of the wheel the boat will not turn up as it should, even when pushed quite hard.

I used a 140 % genua and the original main from 2006.  The rig is recently set by North Sails, and looks fine to me.

Any suggestions?  I get approx 30 degrees apparent on both starboard and port tack - guess thats OK with my old sails.  Speed is as expected.
Stein-Erik Carlsen

Hanse 370e 2006 #41 "Samson II"
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Caspar B View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caspar B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2018 at 11:30
Assuming nothing is wrong with the linkage and that everything is free-running I think you will have to accept that the Hanses with wheel steering have less rudder "feel" than one might want. At least that is what I have done. My previous boat had a tiller and I will admit that made steering a joy. My new 315 has two wheels that are super smooth, but robs me of a proper tactile feel for how the boat is sailing. Today I rely more on my instruments, polars and tell-tales than the feedback through the rudder. It takes some of the je ne sais quoi out of sailing, but it sure is comfortable for cruising.
2016 Hanse 315
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paul_heinz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paul_heinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2018 at 16:27
Hi,
I had the same feeling in 2012 when we bought our H400.
Compared to my old Comet 375 I had the same feeling of lacking rudder pressure. It took nearly 6 month to get used to the balanced rudder.
The sailplan is designed and balanced for self tacking jibe and the huge main. In this configuration you´ll have a stronger rudder pressure.
My G1lightwind is 155% and with this sail the H400 has a perfect balance and you need only a few degrees rudder to go fast. If we have for races an experienced helmsman steering, it takes him some time to adjust to this low but sensitive 145cm Wheel.
Rudder pressure is stronger with the self tacking jibe and the G3.
After I got used to the wheel > I really love it
Klaus
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paul_heinz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paul_heinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2018 at 16:39
Another one who likes to soft response from the rudder is the autopilot.
He needs less power > less energy consumption.
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SamsonII View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SamsonII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2018 at 12:12
Thanks for your input. Was out sailing yesterday averaging 20 knots of true wind.  The boat Carries full main and self tacker without problem. The aft stay is tight, outhaul at max and some cunningham tension.  The boat goes fast and slightly below 30 degrees apparent to the wind. All good. I have between 3-6 degrees of rudder pressure. Which is fine. But i don't feel it in the wheel. If I let go of the wheel - even with up to 30 degrees of heel - the boat will not turn up into the wind. And my steering is smooth with no friction.  

Its fine with a balanced rudder, but I would have prefered that the boat would have some tendency to turn into the wind.


Edited by SamsonII - 28 June 2018 at 12:20
Stein-Erik Carlsen

Hanse 370e 2006 #41 "Samson II"
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SamsonII View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SamsonII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2018 at 08:42
Hi,

Another day with perfect sailing conditions in Oslo yesterday evening.  29 degrees celsius and a steady 10-15 knots of true wind.

I continue my research into trimming the boat perfectly. What I now realize is that the rudder pressure is actually OK both on both tacks with between 2-4 degrees weather helm.  But the major difference is how I feel it in the wheel.  

On starboard tack i feel a good pressure and when I let go of the wheel the boat will steer up into the wind (as it should).  But on port tack the boat will continue when letting go of the wheel and even steer lower into the wind!  So there is some sort of unbalance either in the rudder or maybe the keel?

Any input from you guys? The rig is set and adjusted recently by renown experts in Oslo (Christen Withs team), and I am confindent thats not the issue.




Stein-Erik Carlsen

Hanse 370e 2006 #41 "Samson II"
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paul_heinz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paul_heinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2018 at 23:21
Hi Stein-Erik, I´ve no idea from where this lack of rudderpressure is coming. Failures in keel or rudder are very unlikely.
When we started racing with our H400 I was  tricked by the electronics. The simrad IS20 told me that we where not able to reach on upwind courses same speed and windangles for port and starboard.
The difference in speed was about 0,7 knots in boatspeed and about 6 degress in AWA.
We were confused and thought that maybe there was something wrong with the Mast, Keel or Rudder. We checked carefully the Mast with the NorthSails triminstructions, checked via laser Keel and Rudder on the hard.
But we weren´t able to find the reason for the different performance.
Then, more or less by occassion, we changed our IS20 system to  Nexus NX2/NXR system which we could buy cheap on ebay. This mainly for the included mastinstruments. My headsailtrimmer would like to see the outcame of his adjustments.
The NX racesoftware can give corrected readings for port and starboard courses.
As we have only one transducer for boatspeed and this is installed on the starboard side it can´t give you exact values for port and starboard courses as the flow of water which drives him is not equal on both courses. Boatspeed is used for calculation of windspeed and angles.
After these corrections by the racesoftware we saw that our performance on both courses was equal.
These findings doesn´t help you with the lack of rudderpressure, but maybe help you to understand the difference in performance and the adjusted trimm.
I suggest for the trim don´t rely on the electronics, use only the windex and trimmtelles and check the angles and the rudderpressure again. Check the difference in SOG and Boatspeed thr water on upwind courses on port and starboard without changing the middleposition of the traveller. Be sure that the tidalstream is equal on both courses. we do this always on the grevelingen which is a saltwater Lake without tide.
If you get the same heeling and the same speed I´ve no glue from where the lack of pressure is coming.

Good luck Klaus


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Sea-U View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sea-U Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2018 at 08:40
I recon it is the speed sensor that did the trick with the Nexus.
I have never liked the small narrow wheel on the Airmar speed sensor. It is too sensive to growth and probably other things.
I once had a speed transducer were the wheel was much wider. I am sure that gave a much more correct speed than what I have now with the Airmar triducer.

The depth has now stopped working and I am considering changing to separate transducer for speed and depth.




Sea-U is a 370e #532 located SW Norway
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2018 at 12:00
I had the same issue on my Hanse400e from 2006. When I was sailing with the wind from port and releasing the wheel the boat went to Starboard. Sailing with wind from starboard it went even more to starboard. I tryed motoring on a calm day and then put the gear in neutral, released the wheel and again, boats stears to starboard. The issue was an unsymetric rudder blade! The port side of the blade was flatter than the starboard side so the rudder was like a wing generating lift to starboard, turmning the wheel clockvise). When I lifted the boat for the winter I removed the blade and meassured the profile. The difference was 10mm! I fixed it with polyester filler and some hours of sanding and today the balance is almost perfect. If you need guadance for the process please send me an PM. Btw, The 2006 Hanse 400 (and probably 370) had a Polish rudder supplier and I have heard many owners with the same issue. An alternativ to fairing/sanding is to by a replacement rudder from Jefa. Probably around €4000 or more.
Jesper
Hanse 400e
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin&Rene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2018 at 21:37
When the reviewers of Yachting Monthly review a old classic yacht, they always go on about the fact that you can set the yacht up and go down below to make a cup of tea and the yacht sails itself.  I have an old yacht design book from 1945 that goes on about a "new" technique to ensure the yacht, in their terms "holds the road"; ie can sails unattended, and all these yachts had rudders on skegs, so they were not semi-balanced.  

Many years ago,  I sailed Gibsea 312 in Greece and we did about 10nm with nobody holding the tiller.  It was interesting being able to change the course direction slightly by standing at the front of the yacht or on the windward stern quarter.

I think Hanses are mainly designed to be sailed with a self tacker jib and since you are using a genoa, the centre of effort will have been moved forward, thus reducing any tendency for the yacht to round up to windward.  On our 341 in medium winds we know that the light feel of the steering becomes very light when we hoist the asymmetric spinnaker.   

I sail a Merlin Rocket dinghy (4.23m long) and so am used to sailing with a semi-balanced rudder.  Many years ago, I was involved in some trials to see how much they could change the design to allow a bigger spinnaker. When we used a big Fireball spinnaker, we had to go downwind with the tiller pushed to leeward to keep the dinghy going straight.   In the twin trapeze Cherub dinghy (3.6m long), there is so much power from the masthead spinnaker, they have to sail the dinghy heeled to leeward to give it some windward helm to balance the leeward helm pull of the spinnaker. 

When we are teaching new dinghy sailors, we always say to them that every time they move the rudder, they are putting on the brakes.  In a yacht if you are having to put on more than a small number of degrees of rudder, then you are slowing the yacht down. 

The Sailing Today review of the 342, that prompted me to buy a 341, they said that they thought the steering was a bit low geared, (too many turns lock to lock), but commented that this could be a good thing, as too many cruising sailors over-steer the yacht. 

Conclusion.  Gets used to the feel of the steering, concentrate on the sails, do not over-steer the yacht, let it get into its groove and keep it there and to any of your friends just say" that is what a properly designed yacht is supposed to feel like" 
Martin&Rene Hanse 341 Dipper Wheel steering, 3 cabin layout & shallow keel, normally based in Scotland
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