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Rig tension

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mopoulter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mopoulter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2018 at 16:47
Not sure I understand how tape on mast would help. But maybe I misunderstand if so please forgive my account that follows.
 
I just did this on Saturday with a very knowledgeable friend. We made sure the mast was centred by running the main halyard down to the chain plates. Just having the shackle touch the plate aft of turnbuckles. Alternatively you can use a tape measure and have turnbuckle stop at some distance from any spot on the deck.  Easing or tightening the uppers was used to do this nothing else. Once centred we tensioned the uppers, mids and lower to the desired tension.
 
TAFN
 
Mike P
mp

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Rubato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2018 at 17:28
Originally posted by silversailor silversailor wrote:

Steve, the North instructions show a picture of the center halyard measured against a black band on the mast.  My mast does not have a black band.  Where is yours located? Would you measure up from the base of the mast to the top of the black band? Thanks.

I'll see if mine is still there BUT it might be different on a 400. Would be best if someone could measure a 370.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Konstantin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2018 at 19:09
There is a document on Selden web site - Selden Hints and Advice. It contains very comprehensive instructions for rig tuning and tensioning. I used these instructions to tension our rig on 445, using their "folding rule method" and it was like a completely different boat. I can now point higher, the mast is very stable on the waves, and in general the rig produces solid feeling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silversailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2018 at 20:55
Originally posted by Konstantin Konstantin wrote:

There is a document on Selden web site - Selden Hints and Advice. It contains very comprehensive instructions for rig tuning and tensioning. I used these instructions to tension our rig on 445, using their "folding rule method" and it was like a completely different boat. I can now point higher, the mast is very stable on the waves, and in general the rig produces solid feeling.


Just read it and will follow it's directions and see if that improves my tacking angle.  However, it doesn't answer my questions about forestay tension. The North tuning guide for the 370 shows a method for measuring the right length of the forestay.  It requires that you extend the jib halyard to a black band (probably tape)  on the mast.  My mast is missing that mark.  If anyone with a 370 can check their mast and locate a similar black band, please measure it's distance from the deck or some other fixed point for me.
Thanks all.
Silversailor
South Haven, MI USA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2018 at 22:11
Was on the boat this weekend and looked at the black band but didn't take a pic at the time, sorry. The band, on the 400 is in line with the top of the gooseneck that holds the boom on the mast. I believe the black bands are to denote the standard size of the mainsail and there are three of them - one lower down on the mast marking the mainsail tack (this location should be standard on all boats), one near the end of the boom marking the length of the foot, and the other near the top of the mast marking the top of the head. So, for the purposes of the forestay length measurement, mark the front of the mast level with the top edge of the boom and that should be very close.

hope that helps
Steve


Edited by Rubato - 11 September 2018 at 18:49
Steve

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sailingjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2018 at 14:24
Originally posted by Rubato Rubato wrote:

Originally posted by silversailor silversailor wrote:

It's been a couple of years since we had the above discussion so I thought it would be interesting to see what we have learned, what tuning we are using and what kind of results we are getting.  I've been using MP's tuning guide but still are not able to tack within 90 degrees. I planned on lengthening the forestay about 0.25" but haven't done so yet.  Your thoughts? Look forward to all thoughts. Thanks.


We got noticeably better point when we lenghtened the forestay a number of years ago per the North guide.

Steve


Steve,

I have been struggling to get her point higher and just measured the forestay. It's shorter than in North sails doc. How did you extend your forestay?
Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2018 at 18:48
I found a turnbuckle at the base of the forestay that was hidden by the furling mechanism. I was able to undue a few screws and such on the furler, raise it up on the forestay to expose the turnbuckle

Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2018 at 07:23
Without reading the thread all over again I do not think that anyone has mentioned the relationship between backstay tension, lowers & forstay tension.
I only have a humble 311 so it may not apply so much to larger boats , if so apologies & i will go away !!! but here are my theories.
A lot depends on mainsail shape & fullness. I discussed this with my sail maker & advised him that I achieved about 150mm bend with reasonable backstay tension. ( since then I have fitted a 32:1 backstay set up.
I set my uppers to 24/25% using a guage.
If I have slack lowers & I tighten the backstay the mast bends. If I have tighter lowers & apply backstay the mast bends less & i apply the weight to the forestay.
Of course these variations are very small but they are there and can be seen.
So when one talks on the forum about tension on the lowers& mids, first one has to stop pumping so that means setting up with a slight pre bend. Then one has to look at the relationship between mids & lowers. My lowers are thicker than the mids so the tension is less than the mids as the wire is thicker.( do not know about larger yachts)
Then one has to look at the cut of the mainsail. A fuller main will need to be flattened more upwind if one wants to put off reefing so use of the cunningham & backstay with slacker mids will allow this. However, this will not tighten the forstay so much. So does one reef earlier?
As for forstay tension & jib shape it used to be recognised ( do not know about current feeling is I do not race anymore) that whilst having the flow slightly further forward might be faster it is harder for the average helm to steer the boat. So a more helm friendly sail had the flow a little further aft.
So when the sail is cut it may be cut for a slack forstay with the flow aft a bit & tightening the forstay may not be necessary. However, with an older dacron sail the flow may be moving aft & one wants to drag it forward with halyard tension etc & want tighter mids & lowers to tighten the forstay.
So whilst owners talk about tension & disagree , it may be that the cut of the sails is the deciding factor in the final analysis. Tighter mids & lowers for more forstay tension, Slacker to flatten the mainsail

Finally, I am on my 5Th forstay in 15 years (I keep experimenting) & have now actually moved my mast tip forward by 300mm ( checked on CAD) to what it was when I bought the boat, to ease the pressure on the helm. My mast (when sighted up with a building) is more upright than similar Hanse yachts so I have gone against the general feeling here as well.

It may be that things have moved on since I raced in the 80's & I am talking rubbish but I am sure that others will tell me !!!!!!!Smile

PS to other 311 owners- do not ask me what my mix is , that is my secret Wink


Edited by samuel - 13 September 2018 at 07:41
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sailingjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2018 at 14:00

Thank you Steve for the info.

I have earlier found the trimming measures for the 400 from a North Sails New Zealand internet site, but the link no longer exists. Luckily I have a paper copy. The actual J-measure (435cm) is smaller than in the document (458cm). The measure from mark on forestay to deck is also quite a bit smaller (206cm vs. 236cm). I don't know, what year models the North Sails doc was covering, but obviously my 2011-model is not compatible. My boat has a Selden under deck furler TD400 and a Sparcraft rig.

Looks like rigging measures vary on all(?) Hanse models depending on year model and rigging manufacturer, so one has to be careful when trimming...


Now I need to find the right trim settings for my boat. Any input would be appreciated.
Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara
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