myHanse.com - Hanse Yacht Owners Website myHanse.com - Hanse Yacht Owners Website myHanse.com - Hanse Yacht Owners Website myHanse.com - Hanse Yacht Owners Website

Welcome to myHanse.com the forum for Hanse Yachts owners throughout the world.

Forum Home Forum Home > General > Racing
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 370/400 what sails do you use for racing?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

370/400 what sails do you use for racing?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
Rubato View Drop Down
Admiral
Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 370/400 what sails do you use for racing?
    Posted: 28 January 2007 at 07:57
Wondering what sails people are successfully using in racing the 370s and 400s?
 
My 400 is in commissioning and on the recommendation of the dealer and sailmaker, I have the following on order from Sobstad for racing...
 
A maxi  jib and a mainsail (bigger roach than the standard main) believe it is the Genesis Platinum Vectran series. The maxi jib is about 108% and will sheet inside the shrouds. With the bigger roached main, I'm having to change the wire backstay to line - using PBO. What have others done to get a bigger roached main to tack/gybe easier around the backstay?
 
To avoid a high aspect chute that tends to be less stable, I'm using the code 6 to the top of the forestay.
 
That's about all I can afford for now. We do get some pretty light breezes at times during the summer 5-8 knots so it will be interesting to see how much power I have from this combination. Hoping to avoide a big overlapping genoah. Is anyone racing with one, in what conditions?
 
Steve
Back to Top
John Allison View Drop Down
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 23 November 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 742
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Allison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2007 at 20:20
Hi Rubato,
No wish to spread any alarm but I'd suggest you double check the use of backstay you propose - easpecially as I assume you'll release pressure when tacking / gybing?
We've a similar (but 3 spreader) rig set up on our 461, and started asking questions of Hanse UK plus local riggers when it appeared to invert once all backstay pressure was released.
Seems the stays were set as they should be - and got a note from Hanse Germany to warn that if sailed in any breeze, uphill or down, I MUST maintain a backstay pressure of xx psi (sorry can't recall what but we marked it on the adjuster to ensure we never went below) or we'd risk loosing the rig!
So methinks it may be worth you double checking and getting in writing a Hanse OK to your proposals.....
Cheers
JOHN
No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had!
Back to Top
MYTHOS NIKOS View Drop Down
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2008
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MYTHOS NIKOS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2009 at 20:40
  Hi Rubato!  I am about to order sails for racing ! I only have the standard ones that came with the boat . Trying to point out wich woud be the best choice its getting more and more difficult to deside Confused !                      Maybe  you or somebody else who has raced the 400 can come up with some conclutions so we the  "newcomers" can get some of your wisdom!JIB 108?  or 140? does it worth the penalty? Maybe a light 108?  Asym.? or SYM? sym Runner and asym from 120 deg and up? High roached Main is a must !    COME ON GUYS !!!  Put down your experience to make the H400 most competitive !! thanks a lot !          Nikos.
GREEK MYTHOS 400e#498                      [URL=http//www.mythos-sailing.com       
Back to Top
Rubato View Drop Down
Admiral
Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2009 at 17:15
Nikos.
I'd be happy to share a few thoughts but there are so many variables this isn't a 2 minute job...  Wink 
First off, let's get some datapoints to describe your particular situation.
How often are you going to race? every week, 1 or 2 a month, only couple of times a year.
What type of races? Longer distance or "round the cans" 
What wind conditons do you want to be competitive in, what wind range is typical for your particular racing area?
Something else to consider, but I'm not yet competent in my knowledge Embarrassed, what rating system will you race under and where are this rating system's "break points"?
 
Steve
Back to Top
silversailor View Drop Down
Admiral
Admiral


Joined: 25 May 2005
Location: South Haven, MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1021
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silversailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2009 at 00:44
I do a lot of daysailing, weekly around the buoy yacht club races and several long distance (70-200 miles) races.  Since light air (under 10K) is not unusual on Lake Michigan, I added a 135 which has substantially improved overall light air performance.  What I like about the 135 is that it can stand up to 25 knots as well.  I have a small asym and hope to add as large a asym as I can without penalty.  I'll use the small one for heavier air and the larger one for light air.  This, I think, is an inexpensive way to move from cruising to racing.  No, I will not be the fastest 370 out there, but I will be competetive.
Silversailor
South Haven, MI USA
S/V Legacy
2010 Andrews 28
Back to Top
MYTHOS NIKOS View Drop Down
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2008
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MYTHOS NIKOS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2009 at 21:59
  Hi everybody!      For the last 15 years I 'm racing under IMS (ORCi now) with my beloved FEELING 1090 (FOR SALE NOW) and will follow with H400e . I  do about 15-20offshore races annualy  all the wind scale. The problem is :  Hanses are slow under 10 knts . In open angles is no issue if an assym is used right ?   Beating in light wind is an issue for me ! According to the polardiagramm the140% gives a 0,2 knt more than the 105% after 50 degrees . Considering the penalty in the rating does the 140 pay back actualy? Or maybe a  light 108% highroached gives same results with lot lesser penalty? Ofcourse this can be folowed up by a code 0 over 45 degrees.  What is your opinion about ?                  cheers Nikos                                                                                                                              
GREEK MYTHOS 400e#498                      [URL=http//www.mythos-sailing.com       
Back to Top
Rubato View Drop Down
Admiral
Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 22:06

Since you asked, here’s some personal opinions and observations regarding the racing performance of my Hanse 400e. Hopefully you’ll find it helpful in evaluating some of the options that you may be considering.

First, it’s necessary to put this in context from two aspects; the racing environment that I’m in (Vancouver, BC, Canada) and the boat configuration that I have.

Vancouver racing environment – I do most of racing in a Vancouver Area Racing Council (VARC) set of races that starts in late march and finishes in late October. There are 5 or 6 divisions that race. The boats are allocated to different divisions according to rating only. I race in Division 2 which has a rating range of GPH = 600.1 to 630 as calculated by ORC Club. There are not enough boats racing to further break this down into light versus heavy boats. This results in a division where there is a very large range of yacht weight, type, etc. It is an extremely competitive division and includes the following: J109, J35/36/37, Dash34, Ben First 36.7, Ben 10R, Antrim 27, C&C 44, SR33, Grand Surprise. Quite a range! The races are broken into 2 types – “round the cans” (windward/leeward) and distance. As you would guess, it’s difficult for a large heavy boat to compete effectively in light air in round the cans style racing with something a third it’s weight but that’s what we quite often try to do…  So now you understand what I mean by the term “competitive”.

Winds in the Vancouver area can vary greatly but I’d characterize them primarily in the light to medium range 5 – 10 knots with the average in the 6-8 knot range. We get the odd race where we see 15-25 knots but they are few and far between. So Vancouver’s average wind range is lighter than the ideal for a Hanse.

Rubato configuration – late 2006 production 400e, standard keel, traveler in the cockpit, primary winches (46s) in the more forward position, 108% Vectran Genesis Platinum jib sheeted to cabin top mounted tracks, 581 ft2 Vectran Genesis Platinum main, Code 6 0.75oz Symmetrical Spinnaker (1422 ft2, uses over sized Carbon pole, 16.75’ long), PBO backstay.

Current Competitiveness – Rubato is quite competitive in the wind range of about 9 knots (4.5 m/s) and above. In wind speeds above 14 knots (or thereabouts) we are very competitive (dominating?). In the 7-8 knot range we are disadvantaged and when the wind goes light, below 6 knots, we might as well break out the beer and rum. The boat is definitely suited more to the longer distance races than to round the cans. This is for 2 reasons; weight and pointing ability. Weight – it’s a heavy boat so you accelerate slower out of tacks and going around marks. Pointing ability is okay but not great; particularly in the lighter stuff. It’s only a few degrees off most other boats but it’s noticeable. On longer distance races you are generally sailing on a broader range of angles to the wind. So distance races are better for the boat versus  windward/leeward courses where being lighter and having the best pointing ability really gives an advantage.

So here are some notes about some of the decision made so far. The reason for picking the sails that I did was available funds – I didn’t have a lot of money to invest in a wide range of sails or to experiment so it was a best guess. It was unknown what wind range the 108% jib would be competitive.
PBO Backstay – the standard main is very close to the backstay already. The racing main has more roach than the standard main so the objective was to get a more flexible backstay that make it easier for the main to tack/gybe across in lighter breezes. It didn’t help, don’t bother with this mod, it’s a pain to tack/gybe in light air period.
Rig Tension – this is very very important. Use the selden tuning guide, the North guide, and get a Loos tension gauge to set up your rig.  This type of rig (frac with swept spreader, no running backstay) is one of the tougher to setup and the tensions are the highest of all the configurations. Not a problem but very important to achieve good performance.
“Jib Sheeting point”
– to minimize the modifications made to the boat when it was first launched, we tried to sheet the jib to a point just behind the shroud base (basically in line with the standard genoa track but further forward). We rigged an innerhauler system to trim the sheet further inboard when necessary. This did not work very well at all. Biggest reason was that the clew of the jib was fairly low and close to the sheeting point so the innerhauler had very little ability to bring the foresail inboard. For such a system to work more effectively you need the clew higher so there is a fair bit of sheet between the clew and the car, otherwise the sheet and the innerhauler are just fighting each other. At the beginning of season 2 I installed the cabin top track using the aluminum backing plates built into the boat by Hanse. It works very well.
Overlapping foresail – is needed to be more competitive in “light air”, under 6-7 knots breeze as mentioned above. I’m currently contemplating ordering one but haven’t decided on a size yet. I’d prefer something in the 130-135% range but doubt it will work well, here’s why….  Our boats have a fairly wide shroud base (distance between the shrouds). Whatever overlapping foresail we get, it has to go around these shrouds.  For larger overlaps, say 140 or bigger, the shroud can start to fit into the deeper part of the sail. This isn’t the case for smaller overlaps and it therefore affects your ability to point. So we can point better with a 150 versus a 120. This is a well known problem with this config on many boats (e.g. J-109). Our problem is that if we go with a big overlap, the 150 say, we’ll become overpowered quicker (sooner), than something smaller. That’s the tradeoff.
Spinnakers – Asymmetrical spinnakers are easier to cruise with. However, to be competitive on the race course with one, it should be on a bow sprit.  Hanses don’t have a bow sprit (no, that 6” metal extension is not a bow sprit) and this effects how deep the boat can sail with an asymmetrical. Above 10 knots of breeze, a Hanse with a symmetrical chute and pole will sail deeper than one with an asymmetrical. I chose a code 6 symmetrical. Standard would be a code 5, the code 6 pole is oversized at 16.75’ giving the kite a broader base, this adds stability. Higher aspect ratio kites are less stable. Rubato’s config works well. Only thing I’d say is make sure that the spinnaker pole car is a ball bearing type so that it can be adjusted easily under load.
Mainsheet and Traveler – is a must in the cockpit for competitive racing. There just isn’t the ability to make the continual adjustments to traveler and mainsheet when all the controls are on the cabin top. For the main sheet, we currently have a 6:1/24:1 coarse/fine tune system. It works okay but in general it’s too hard to get harden the main enough with the coarse tune and the fine tune doesn’t have enough “travel” to harden the main up afterward. We’ve decided to move the 46 sized primary winches back to the more rearward position and use these on the mainsheet in an “Admiral’s Cup” configuration.
Winches - We’ll be putting 50 size winches in as primaries. This will help with trimming the 108% jib which is currently tough in breezes above 14 knots. This winch size is more appropriate for an overlapping foresail as well.

So that's my opinion, take it for what it's worth and remember, you get what you pay for :)

Steve
Back to Top
MYTHOS NIKOS View Drop Down
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2008
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MYTHOS NIKOS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 23:28
   Hi Steve!    Smile     It is very kind of you to pass me this volume of information!!!  I had a discussion today with my messurer.  We found out that H400s with 140% do NOT achieve the speeds predicted in the polar diagram of the ORCi messurment. This is checked after a few races last summer in the Aegean see and the saronic gulf (ATHENS) on a couple of boats with expert crews plus the messurer on bord! So he agreed to my idea to have a light 108% with the proper curves and roach for up to 10-12 knts and especialy without waves, and a mid-heavy 108% for there up. He is going to run a program to see if its good to sorten the main luff in order to have roach on the main lower so is better for the backstay and at the same time not lose sqm of sail!    Thank you very much for your letter its very helpful for me and im sure to many other enthusiasts to improove the performance and have fun sailing our Hs. I'll keep contactWink !  What's your opinion obout my plan?   cheers Nikos
GREEK MYTHOS 400e#498                      [URL=http//www.mythos-sailing.com       
Back to Top
MYTHOS NIKOS View Drop Down
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2008
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MYTHOS NIKOS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 23:33
  Sorry I forgot to mention ! Main traveler IS in the cockpit and jib traveler is going to be instaled on cabin top ofcourse!
GREEK MYTHOS 400e#498                      [URL=http//www.mythos-sailing.com       
Back to Top
Rubato View Drop Down
Admiral
Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2009 at 17:37
Nikos,
Thanks for your note, interesting information indeed. I wonder though, although the trials showed that the boat wouldn't peform to the rating/predicted performance with a 140%, is it still better off using this sail than a 108%? I guess I have a difficult time understanding how a 108% light jib is going to be much better than a 108% med-heavy one? Sure, if designed for light area, it's performance will be slightly better than a heavier sail but in the end the boat still won't have enough power in light air will it?
 
So to me it looks like we have 2 choices, neither which is ideal. Either stick with the 108% jib, optimized for light air, and hope like heck the wind picks up so you can actually race. Or, get a 140%, take a rating hit for light air which we might not be able to perform to but at least be move around the course with the other boats (ending up perhaps not doing that well on corrected time). Both results are disappointing but I like the idea of at least moving around the course with the other boats....
 
Am I underestimating the performance of a 108% designed for light air? I'm interested in your and others' opinion on that. I'll also put it to the couple of local sail makers...
 
Steve


Edited by Rubato - 13 January 2009 at 17:40
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.

Links : www.hanseyachts.co.uk www.hanseyachts.com www.fjordboats.co.uk www.dehler.co.uk www.varianta.co.uk