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400e Inner Forestay - Deck chainplate solution?

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Ratbasher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ratbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 September 2023 at 19:12
You’re very welcome.  I can strongly recommend LatBros https://www.latbros.co.uk/. who are unsurprisingly quite familiar with the H400 now; I’ll probably get them to extend the hard rails up to the gates. Mark - perhaps you could try for a government subsidy as a solar farm….?!?
H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard' Gosport, UK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark_J1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2023 at 07:08
Iain - I do wonder why there’s no provision for me to export power (at a profit or offset) to the marina grid when we are not using Grey Goose ;)

On the upside, our anodes last vastly longer from rarely using shore power. I’ve actually started to make the ‘annual’ lift an 18 month cycle (limit is prop greasing & antifoul life now). So outside of the cost of power there’s a huge saving on annual lift costs from going heavy on solar & power systems onboard. 

Mark

Ps I talked to Lat Bros re arch for the future. Thanks for recommending. 
Hanse 400e "Grey Goose" Hull #31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arborist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2025 at 20:27
this is a great idea, wonder if i could and use timber and integrate a boat hook on the end........
would you have any more pics of the arch please , looking at investing in one and would love more ideas
thanks eoin
hanse 400
2007
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Ratbasher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ratbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2025 at 11:39
Hi Eoin - I've had the pleasure of visiting Mark's 'Grey Goose' and the changes he's made are very well worth considering, particularly if you're going to do extended offshore stuff.  An inner forestay is high on my futures list but in the meantime the arch has paid a lot of dividends.  Advantages/uses:

1. Mounting for radar/solar/starlink/JonBuoy recovery system
2. Raising of stern light height, thus increasing visibility from astern
3. Easily removable solid bar across the transom, increasing security at sea for the helm while still permitting easy access.
4. Strong base for extending steel rails from the stern to the entry gates, replacing the guard wires.  Provides greater security when transiting to/from the cockpit in a seaway.
5. Secure framework increases safety (or at least the feeling of) behind the wheel, particularly in bouncy seas.
6. Provides security when standing high at the stern with binoculars or when 'watering the fishes'
7. Provides a rig for the 6:1 tackle for bringing scuba or other heavy gear onboard
8. A base from which to rig safety lines at chest height from stern to shrouds if required by conditions.  Used as an extra hand-hold these augment but do not replace a centre-line jackstay; they are never clipped onto anyone's harness.
9.  Strong attachment for cockpit tent, making the structure sturdier at sea.

Disadvantages:

1.  High initial cost.  Its up to us as individuals how much we assess the advantages as 'value for money'.
2.  Weight.  This is the third-worst place to add weight on a seagoing yacht.  However, it can be mitigated by careful re-stowing of other heavy gear.  I now routinely carry our tender on the coachroof amidships instead of in the stern locker; while accepting a hit to the AVS this has obviated any increased tendency to pitch. 
3. Lower radar position, thus decreasing range.  However, in practice this is not an issue for me.  Given AIS, I'm not that interested in any target beyond 12 miles anyway and the mast is the worst place to have extra weight, though admittedly modern domes are very light.

I needed to substantially increase the backing plates beneath the appropriate stanchions; not a bad idea anyway for anyone wanting to hang heavy weights on the pulpit rails.  However, it I were doing it again I'd try to use aluminium or a thinner tube size to reduce the weight yet further.  The solar capacity could easily be increased at a later time if necessary.

Pictures below; hope you find this useful but if there's anything else do shout.

Iain

IMO its important to make sure that the arch design flows with the lines of the boat.  Its in the eye of the beholder, but I think my fellow got it about right:



Showing attachments





At the risk of being provocative, the following picture shows what not to do with a yacht being used for anything else than short trips in calm seas.  Not only has a substantial weight been added at the stern, its been placed high up as well.  I think this will certainly increase that vessel's willingness to pitch, perhaps to the point of just hobby-horsing up and down as I was surprised to see even an HR36 do last year and its AVS will also have taken a hit.  However, the owner may well be aware of those effects yet still accept them; we all use our boats differently and what's good for one may not be for another.  We just have to know the trade-offs.




Edited by Ratbasher - 14 January 2025 at 11:44
H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard' Gosport, UK
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DJgun View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DJgun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2025 at 00:11
Has  anybody considered fitting a bridle to the bow cleats to attach an inner forestay in "Solent" type arrangement with mast attachment not far below existing forestany tand. 

That arrangement on mast doesn't need running backstays. Also it avoids the need to reinforce under the deck in forward section of vee berth, or additional tie-rods down to hull.

It is an arrangement I am considering for flying a storm jib.

Cheers, DJ
DJ.....Sailor Ordinaire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arborist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2025 at 09:07
Hi dj, I asked a local rigger about this and suggested using a bridle in Dyneema 
He said he would not trust the cleats unless they were reinforced
Thanks Eoin 
hanse 400
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DJgun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2025 at 11:05
Thanks  Eoin,

Glad to hear someone else had the same thought.

The mounting of the cleats does seem quite strong to me, as they are bolted through the hull and deck flange interface. I guess it would be possible to put backing plates on as  well to improve load capacity. Certainly that joint is one of the strongest points on the hull.  I will inspect the nut/washer arrangement soon, as I am still inclined to do things that way as it is simple and avoids a lot of fabrication work. From memory the cleats use M10 or maybe M12 bolts, so even calculating loading on one bolt per cleat should give sufficient F.O.S. I'll post again after more thorough analysis.

Cheers,
DJ
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Ratbasher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ratbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2025 at 18:04
Hi DJ - I've mused on much the same thought as I'm not really happy with my sleeve-type storm jib.  I did have all the cleats reinforced with more substantial backing plates a couple of years ago but this was to increase their strength when moored or hitched to an anchor-bridle in wilder conditions.  I know you're an engineer so will have a much better appreciation of the relevant forces than me but I'd be concerned about the constant sudden jerking on such a system in very strong winds and associated sea-states, without the shock absorbency of mooring and bridle lines.  

I had the pleasure of visiting Mark's 'Grey Goose' and was impressed with the aesthetics as well of the strength of the steel bar he's fashioned to take the loads in the forecabin.  However, I'll be genuinely interested in the results of your further analysis.

Iain
H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard' Gosport, UK
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