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Air conditioning on inverter

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Pzucchel View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 March 2021 at 11:55
dear all, 

I discovered from one post from @arcadia that the inverter can supply only the left column of the AC panel, and the right column is from the shore/generator only. It is something that is not documented, but an analysis of the electrical circuit shows it's the case...more or less. 

More precisely, the inverter serves in normal conditions the left column of loads....except the last circuit breaker. There is a jumper somewhere (i didn't identify its physical position yet, but it's /3.4B in the circuit diagram) that allows putting the waterheater and the washer/dryer onto the inverter too - and they are the two AC circuit breakers sitting in the bottom row. 

I would like to put however the air conditioner on the inverter too (in my case, the first 4x of the right column of the panel). I have 4X frigomar units that can run at 150W each, and i have 1080W solar panels. It does make sense for me, and i don't want to run the generator necessarily.

Does anybody know/has reflected on the best way of doing it?  the schmeatics is very unclear on how the Masscombi is connected to the circuit, it is seemingly disconnected from the panel! 
It can't be, obviously: is it connected at connectors X101.16 and X110.16? see the diagram from the official documentation...i will try to dig out from the hardware, but i have to disconnected the panel...




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Arcadia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2021 at 16:50
On the diagram, the inverter is shown disconnected because it is a factory option. When installed, it is connected at the location shown as “not with inverter”. Also, the two breakers that you identify as having a “jumper”, don’t actually have jumpers. That is actually a relay which disconnects those appliances from the inverter because of their heavy amp draw. So those would not be a good choice for your aircon! If you want to put your aircon on the inverter there is a simple way, but the amp draw on your 12 volt system will be very high, even with your Frigomar units. You can do it by leaving the units on the four breakers as they are. You can then change those same four breakers to the “inverter” buss. It’s a bit tricky to do, but all the breakers on that panel can either be on the inverter buss or the main AC buss depending on which the are wired to. Basically any breaker can be wired to AC main, inverter or 120v step down. You may only need 2 breakers for your 4 units because of their low amp draw.
Leon / ARCADIA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wild Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2021 at 17:40
If looking at your elect drawning (just left from the source selector switch)there is the relay 3K1 this wil connect the heavy DC loads (wasser-dryer and boiler (via the relay switch 2K1 see page 5) only if there is wall power or generator power on and the source switch is in position wal or generator and this via the inverter-charger ( mastervolt or Victron) with a small time delay to protect the generator ( to give the gen time to reach RPM)and protect the PMDi (gen inverter) and via the Earth leakage switch 2F1.
The airco’s and Aux breakers only get power via the eart leakage switch 3F1 when the sources switch in wall power or generator mode and there is 230 or 115 V supply.
The relay 3K1 is installed on the backside of the AC panel close to the source selector switch and the Earth leakage switches.
Connecting the 4 Airco’s on the inverter with out wall or gen supply is a bad idee IMO
I do not believe Frigomar in practice.They will drawn your battery in a short time.



Edited by Wild - 31 March 2021 at 19:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2021 at 18:44
Wild, I’ve already covered the function of the 3k1 relay (not a solenoid!) in my response above. However I will add for Pzucchel regarding aircon amp draw that I also believe you will draw your batteries down quickly. Your solar will help, but only delivers power a short amount of time. The frigomar units have low amp draw, BUT it is continuous, so that over a 24 hour day, it will consume close to what a conventional unit will draw over the same time period. 
Leon / ARCADIA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wild Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2021 at 19:22
sorry yes relay not solenoid Translate problem Confused
I just try to explain the Hanse DC and inverter upset
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pzucchel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2021 at 21:12
Thank you all, I am studying carefully your answers. I need to add I have two Mastervolt ultra 5500, lithium polymer batteries for a total of 11kWh usable energy. I also have a 10kW panda generator. One of the advantages of the lithium batteries is that they can be charged at high current, even 1C. In all cases, the limit will be on the charger/inverter...

Thank you all, sincerely. I agree that the 4x air conditioning units on batteries are probably excessive, but I can also keep only one active and that does make sense... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pzucchel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2021 at 07:56
Originally posted by Arcadia Arcadia wrote:

On the diagram, the inverter is shown disconnected because it is a factory option. When installed, it is connected at the location shown as “not with inverter”. Also, the two breakers that you identify as having a “jumper”, don’t actually have jumpers. That is actually a relay which disconnects those appliances from the inverter because of their heavy amp draw. So those would not be a good choice for your aircon! If you want to put your aircon on the inverter there is a simple way, but the amp draw on your 12 volt system will be very high, even with your Frigomar units. You can do it by leaving the units on the four breakers as they are. You can then change those same four breakers to the “inverter” buss. It’s a bit tricky to do, but all the breakers on that panel can either be on the inverter buss or the main AC buss depending on which the are wired to. Basically any breaker can be wired to AC main, inverter or 120v step down. You may only need 2 breakers for your 4 units because of their low amp draw.

Dear @Arcadia, do you mean to reconnect the aircon breakers to the inverter bus at the level of the 220V control panel or onto the main PCB that is sitting behind the sofa? Very true i could use two breakers instead of four: the frigomar units are also controlled independently, and there is about 10s delay when you put the breaker on to switch on or off the unit, before it drains current. 

Thanks sincerely for the hint/explanation, i start understanding the full picture...

Concerning the relay for the bottom row, a naive question: does it mean that using the water heater while offshore implies either running the generator or the Eberspacher fuel unit with the switch "heater only"? it makes sense, because it's 1200W on my boat and that's indeed quite a lot for a 2150W total  continuous output power...

Overall, it gives me the temptation of installing a second masscombi as slave, in parallel to the current one: it would add redundancy and it would double both charging speed (100Ax2) and inverter current (9.6Ax2). Has anybody already done it? Mastervolt confirms that they still have units in inventory, even if it's not manufactured anymore...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2021 at 15:30
That is correct regarding the water heater relay. Keep in mind that as you move more and more breakers to the inverter buss, you will have less on the main buss.  That will create an imbalance when you are on shore power.  You have two legs of 240v coming in and one leg will have much more load on it than the other. It may not be a problem as long as it isn’t overloaded.  There will be no issue with your generator because it feeds both busses together anyway.
Leon / ARCADIA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pzucchel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2021 at 08:20
Very true... But what do you mean by imbalance? I have a single shore socket, protected by 32A, and the differential is 32A too. My boat is european 240V, so I don't have any 120V legs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2021 at 14:32
I see.  If your boat has only one shore power feed, then you won’t have any imbalance. Boats ordered with factory aircon have a second shore power feed for the 4 aircon breakers.
Leon / ARCADIA
2018 Hanse 588
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