Inner Forestay or not

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   Hi Everyone,I'm considering a soft (removable) inner forestay with a hank on jib on our 461, mainly for offshore use. My question is; Is it really worth it in that the self tacker is only 95% anyway, and keeping in mind we have 4 reefing points in the main already. The last reefing point being storm trysail size.
An inner forestay plus the sail etc. comes at considerable cost and the inconvenience and clutter of running backstays. so are the advantages worth this? Would be keen to hear from those who have done ocean passages with and without. Thanks in advance.

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Jeremy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commander Joined: 28 February 2018 Location: Auckland NZL Status: Offline Points: 91	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeremy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Inner Forestay or not Posted: 23 August 2021 at 23:11
	Hi Everyone, I'm considering a soft (removable) inner forestay with a hank on jib on our 461, mainly for offshore use. My question is; Is it really worth it in that the self tacker is only 95% anyway, and keeping in mind we have 4 reefing points in the main already. The last reefing point being storm trysail size. An inner forestay plus the sail etc. comes at considerable cost and the inconvenience and clutter of running backstays. so are the advantages worth this? Would be keen to hear from those who have done ocean passages with and without. Thanks in advance.

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02 September 2021 at 18:53
	Evening Jeremy, I fitted one a few years ago on our 470 have a look at either the winter maintenance plus or forestay removal topics. Although the latter will only show you a photo of the soft inner forestay in situ, the other shows the fitting of the brackets and strengthening the bulkhead. Is it worth it, well that's up to you. I fitted for two reasons, first and I suppose the main one is, whenever we sail across Lyme Bay one way or the other the wind always seems to disappear, so I wanted to be able to increase the apparent wind using the code 0 in tandem with the J3 and leave the engine off. Secondly if there's too much wind I have a J3! Unfortunately to date we've not been on any long passages where I have been able to set it up and play with it. The Solent doesn't bode well due to the traffic, lack of space and fickle wind direction changes. Fingers crossed we're heading West in a couple of weeks and so I'm hoping that I can give it a go. Is four wheel drive worth it? Depends on what you want the vehicle to do, around Chelsea probably not in the hills of Wales probably (other conurbations and countries available). Edited by JonB - 02 September 2021 at 18:54
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

Jeremy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commander Joined: 28 February 2018 Location: Auckland NZL Status: Offline Points: 91	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeremy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02 September 2021 at 20:37
	Hi Jon, That's interesting, i'll look those old threads. I never really considered sailing the boat as a cutter with twin head sails in light winds, but that's another advantage of that setup. My issue is more too much wind than not enough. I think I need to work out how much wind the boat will sail comfortably in at different points of sail with 3 reefs in the main and the self tacker.

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02 September 2021 at 21:16
	We found that the self tacker is the last thing to reef, the 470 loves to have power forward of the mast to enable it to cut through the weather, it appears to us to be more stable and comfortable. Edited by JonB - 03 September 2021 at 12:13
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

Jeremy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commander Joined: 28 February 2018 Location: Auckland NZL Status: Offline Points: 91	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeremy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 September 2021 at 19:24
	Thanks Jon, At approx what wind strength or angle would you go to the working jib on the inner forestay? Id assume at this point you're already on your 2nd or 3rd reef on the main? Thanks. Jeremy

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 September 2021 at 22:05
	Oddly the 470 doesn't have a third reef, so I had openings fitted in the sail to enable me to lash it down and give me that option. Thankfully never used. I'm expecting 40,45 - 90 but I want to play with it, easier in light winds as the code 0 fitted with a top down furler, has its' sheets well clear, the self-tacking jib, is problematical, but on a long tack, I'd like to see what half jib & J3 does as the 470 seems to like to have power forward of the mast. Again I'd be looking to fly it in an increasing 25 knot winds, with the second reef and see how stable the set up is, I've jib cars on the side so that adds to the equation. And then there's the weak link - me, am I going to see/feel subtle differences. The only way is to try it, if he powers through the waves without too much heel and without slamming then that must be the goal for heavy weather. And, if I can generate enough apparent wind to keep me sailing at a reasonable speed in light airs, then I'll be a smug chap. We're hoping to head west next week (12th Sept), away from the maddening crowds, such is the Solent, so maybe I'll have some answers.
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

Jeremy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commander Joined: 28 February 2018 Location: Auckland NZL Status: Offline Points: 91	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeremy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 September 2021 at 22:31
	That sounds great Jon. I'm sure it will be a nice addition! Have you done running backstays? I couldn't see them in the pic. Jeremy

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 September 2021 at 18:29
	The main whilst being new isn't flat topped so clears the backstay the only time I rigged up running backstays is when I took the forestay off to change the furler (Facnor just locked up). I had running forestays too to hold that big lump of a mast stable! See separate topic
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

Jeremy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commander Joined: 28 February 2018 Location: Auckland NZL Status: Offline Points: 91	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeremy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 September 2021 at 20:10
	Ok thanks. If you're using your jib on the inner forestay isn't it likely that you will get a lot of mast pumping? As the mast is unsupported at the head if the sail (roughly half way up the mast). The genoa however, is supported by the back stays at the top of the mast. This is why I ask about using running backstays, to compensate for mast pumping etc while sailing under the working jib. Id rather not install running backstays as they are an inconvenience and and another expense. So if the way you're doing it works without then that's great.

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 September 2021 at 08:44
	Hi Jeremy, Not sure if your heading to the Southampton boat show but I'm there this Friday (private message me and I'll ping my mobile number). In strong winds the main will of course be reefed and act as a shock absorber as will the secondary stays mast to outer spreaders. If your thoughts are taken to the next conclusion, would the new running stays have to be taken to the top of the inner stay ie halfway down the mast and lead where? Wouldn't this just complicate the operation, as I sail shorthanded and do all the sail work myself I'll take an element of mast pumping if there is some, but proof as they say !
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk



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