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415 Singapore
Vice Admiral Joined: 23 September 2013 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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Hi, further update on this now that I found the right contact at Jefa. Apparently the centre hub of the wheel is one piece of stainless steel, the 'bushings' are just cover plates to hide the welds of the spokes to the hub. So the hub cannot slip round.
Jefa say that there are 11 teeth on the sprocket behind the wheel, so if the chain jumped one tooth that would equate to 32.7 degrees which pretty much coincides with my guess of 35-40 degrees.
Jefa think it is more likely that the chain behind that wheel has stretched, allowing it to jump a tooth. There is no play between the wheels or the rudder now and I believe the tension in the cables / chains is correct so I am really not sure, but I will take the cables out and inspect it as they say a stretched chain should be visible. Stay safe Paul
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Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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DJgun
Commander Joined: 04 April 2020 Location: SydneyAustralia Status: Offline Points: 150 |
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an interesting problem. Roller chainsnever "stretch" but they wear a small amount between pins, bushes and rollers which gives a small amount of elongation over the chain length, which may be perceived as "stretch" . Really an 11T sprocket should not be used in this type of application (IMHO), as there is too much polygonal action which means the chain-cable tension cannot he consistent. Yes, I have a very solid background in rolle rchain technology, being trained by the company who invented it, and used to deal with Bruce Farr on steering in the yachts he built in NZ in the 1970's -1980s.
If the 11T pinions(sprockets) are worm then they need replacing along with the chain. Don't replace separately. Just my two pennies worth. Cheers
Edited by DJgun - 11 June 2021 at 11:25 |
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DJ Sailor Ordinaire
HIN DE-HANJ0331J708 |
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415 Singapore
Vice Admiral Joined: 23 September 2013 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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Hi DJ, I think I understand what you mean about polygonal action, but I guess there is a trade off between sprocket diameter and chain size, unless Jefa went to a smaller but double chain?
Hopefully I can get to the boat tomorrow and take the chain out All the best Paul
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Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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Wild
Vice Admiral Joined: 18 March 2010 Location: Turkey-Greece Status: Offline Points: 784 |
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in the first weeks(2010)we sailed our Hanse 545 downwind in autopilot mode, in very high waves coming in under a backwards angle , the wheels response to move very nervous left and right with a lot noise and one off the cables jumped of the rudder kwadrant. We adjusted the tension of the cables a little and never it happened again.
Is it possible that this happens in your case and that’s the chain has jumped up and move one theet ?
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Wild and Wet
Belgium 545e#268 |
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DJgun
Commander Joined: 04 April 2020 Location: SydneyAustralia Status: Offline Points: 150 |
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415 Singapore
Make sure when changing chain to get 316 stainless chain not 304. The 304 chain is magnetic and will affect compass etc. Same for the sprocket. 316 is unfortunately the most expensive, but must be used. You should be able to reuse the end pieces which connect to the cables. It is probably worth lubricating the chain with a spray type chain lube on a regular basis to maximise life. Bicycle shops have a lot of good chain lube products, and it will improve chain life, and smooth action too.
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DJ Sailor Ordinaire
HIN DE-HANJ0331J708 |
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415 Singapore
Vice Admiral Joined: 23 September 2013 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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I have been back to the boat to
have another look at everything prior to taking out the cables and chains. I
measured the angle between the wheels with my iphone and got between 33 and 34
degrees which would seem to confirm that the chain has indeed slipped one
tooth. However with very little slack in the system I don’t understand how it could jump the 3 or 4 teeth that are fully connected with the chain. I had thought that this had happened whilst going downwind when there was a lot of load on the rudder and helm, but if one side of the system is seriously loaded I can’t see how it could jump teeth. I am beginning to think that tacking upwind in fairly extreme conditions is more likely to cause this, as the load is swapping from one cable / chain to the other fairly quickly but with a period of minimal load in between. I took the wheel and the bearing cover off again, having loosened the cables at the rudder head and pulled the cog forward as much as possible, while someone else slowly turned the port wheel lock to lock, I looked at the chain and cog wheel teeth, I couldn’t see any problems with them. Having looked on this forum to see how others had approached removing the cables, I could only
find advice for different models which suggested that there was another piece
of cockpit floor that needed removing for access. However as you can see from
the photo below the pedestals are mounted on this piece of floor on the 415. I
have also attached a photo of the area below this panel and one of the exposed
cog wheel. All the best Paul |
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Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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Breeze On
Lieutenant Joined: 21 February 2014 Location: Cambridge, MD Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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I replaced all steering cables on my 415 last year after one section rusted & frayed. Each pedestal is held in place by 4 bolts/nuts. I was able to reach the nuts & remove them but it’s a very tight workspace. Needed a long throated socket, the bolts are long (you see one in your second photo, I think). Once that was done I lay the pedestal down, disconnected the sprocket & removed the chain to get to the connecting links. The new cable fit in without removing the pulley. My pedestals had no sikaflex at the bottom & I think that is what led to the corrosion of the cable.
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George & Bev
Breeze On (415 #096) |
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415 Singapore
Vice Admiral Joined: 23 September 2013 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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Hi George, thanks for the reply and for the drawing, very useful. If you managed to fit the new cable without removing the pulleys, do you think it is possible to pull through with a mousing line? I would like to avoid having to take the pedestals out if I can
All the best Paul
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Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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415 Singapore
Vice Admiral Joined: 23 September 2013 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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Thinking about that! It was a silly question as the chain obviously won't got through the pulleys!
Forget I asked
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Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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415 Singapore
Vice Admiral Joined: 23 September 2013 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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I just received these instructions from Jefa:
To take the
chain out:
I will try this and see if I can fine the cause. All the best Paul
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Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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