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Tranquillity View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tranquillity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 September 2022 at 17:21
On our 418 we use the second or third hole from top for best sail shape. We have no problem pulling jib in by hand to reef but leave halyard slightly slack only tightened up when going up wind. The biggest difference we find is how you unfurl the sail, if unfurled gently with a turn around winch allows reefing line to lie tidily on drum, then pull in slack and cleat off then easy to pull in. If allowed to run when releasing often gets overlapping turns on drum that are hard to pull out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 415 Singapore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2022 at 04:32
Tranquility makes a very good point, as it is easy to get overlapping turns that will jam the furler. If everything is adjusted correctly and the furler bearings cleaned and greased it really shouldn't be a problem furling by hand.
If there is an overlapping turn in the furler or the spinnaker halyard has been furled into the jib  the whole thing will jam and using a winch (electric or manual) will not solve the problem!
Below is a photo of what can happen if you are too quick to use a winch, the whole of the top section of the luff foil has been twisted, which resulted in a very expensive repair on a friends boat.
All the best
Paul

Paul - Night Train - 415 #136
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S&J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S&J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2022 at 05:33
I am in absolute agreement that you should never use an electric winch to furl the jib, and only use a manual winch in extreme conditions.
We always furl by hand (usually my job).  The first turn or two takes most effort and does require the crew to release the sheet a fair amount.  We have dyneema halyards which are on tight and releasing this a couple of centimetres (no more) can help.   If we are hard on the wind we usually bear away if the wind is over 10kts.  If you turn almost downwind there is very little pressure on the jib, even in 25kts as your apparent wind will be significantly less.

[Edit:.  I think technique is important too.  We have a turning block on a padeye for the furling line and pull the furler direct from this without putting it anywhere near a winch.  Taking a turn around the winch adds lots of friction and does make it much harder.  Similarly, the crew releasing the jib sheet do so without any turns on a winch so you have no resistance at that side either.]

I think it is important to control the unfurling too, keeping light pressing the furling line to ensure it is goes onto the drum neatly.

If the jib simply will not furl it requires a trip to the foredeck to check things.  We have sometimes had the furling line caught on the bow cleat.  We had a couple of instances where the furling line was actually wrapped a couple of turns around the forestay below the furling drum.  Not sure how this happens but l have also experienced it on a friend's boat.  Using a winch when this happens could cause serious damage.

Interesting that I have just seen a post from a prospective 460 purchaser asking about a factory fitted electric furler on the 2nd forestay.  I assume this is for a Genoa.  Note that an electric furling drum us quite different to using an electric winch.


Edited by S&J - 29 September 2022 at 05:39
H458 #159 Primal Mediterranean cruising
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Martin&Rene View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin&Rene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2022 at 16:18
Going back to the original question, the basic starting point for the jib sheet vertical angle is that a line continuation of the jib sheet should meet the luff of the jib half way between the head and the tack.  So when you next have the jib down, measure the luff and put a mark on the jib.   If you are using a 2:1 set up, then think about a line joining the centre of the 2 pulley blocks.   

If a sailmaker knows your Hanse setup very well, then he will have tried to cut the foot and leech, so that your starting point is the middle hole, but there is no guarantee that is the case, so comparing one sail to another is not really significant.  

Re the furling, as well as easing the jib halyard very slightly, don't forget to ease the back stay slightly if you have tensioned it up in strong winds.

Martin&Rene Hanse 341 Dipper Wheel steering, 3 cabin layout, normally based in Scotland
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2022 at 21:43
Originally posted by Martin&Rene Martin&Rene wrote:

Re the furling, as well as easing the jib halyard very slightly, don't forget to ease the back stay slightly if you have tensioned it up in strong winds.


Whilst I agree about halyard tension, I cannot see how easing backstay tension has anything to do with it. The backstay applies tension to the forstay wire. The furler mechanism &  foil sits over this & rotates around it.
Am I correct in thinking that The foil is not connected in any way to that wire? So how come easing it makes it better. In fact i would suggest a tighter backstay tension is better as it tend to pull the curve out of the forestay. Hence, the foil  will rotate easier around it rather than a curved one
.What you are suggesting does not match my experience with my Facnor furler. However, I will be changing to a new Pro Furl with adjustable stay this winter & it may be different. But I doubt it as the foil rotates over the bottlescrew.
Perhaps I am wrong & you can explain to the contrary


Edited by samuel - 29 September 2022 at 21:47
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Martin&Rene View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin&Rene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2022 at 10:47

The simple answer why I ease the extra load on the backstay would be that some guru in a sailing mag had said it was a good idea.  There could however be an explanation

Putting additional loading on the backstay whilst you are sailing increases the loads on the rigging forward of the mast, so there will be a certain degree of extra extension in the system.  If you have a polyester halyard, the vast majority of the extra load will be taken by the forestay and the additional extension in the jib luff/halyard system will mainly be taken by the stretch of the halyard.

If you have a dyneema halyard then a greater proportion of the additional load will be taken by the jib luff and this extra axial load is transferred from the halyard to the jib through the bearings in the top furler.  Extra load means extra deformation and so extra rolling resistance.  From what I have read Facnor top furlers are not seen as the best, so doing anything to make their life easier seems a good idea.

The Facnor manual that came with my yacht states that

“Never slacken the genoa halyard when furling.”

In the days of polyester halyards, easing the halyard, could generate enough slack so that you would get a halyard wrap.  However,as Pekka has said

With the dyneema halyard the difference between loosened and tightened sail is just a few centimetres: the loosened halyard does not get tangled when (un)furling.

So, if you are careful, you can get away with doing it and ignoring the manufacturer’s instruction..  The fact that easing the halyard does make it easier to furl the sail demonstrates the degree to which the axial load on the bearings affects how easily they rotate.

Similarly, the comment about turning downwind to furl the jib maybe partly to do with the fact that the jib is not flapping so much as it is partly hidden by the mainsail, but the fact that the rig is now being pressed forward is lowering the loads on the rigging forward of the mast and hence easing the load on the furler bearings and making them easier to rotate.

As others have said, regular maintenance of the furlers is a must.  Mine works a lot better now that it is not covered in coal dust as the local coal unloading pier has shut.  No matter what I have done during the day, I always make certain that the jib halyard is slack at the end of the day.

Like you, I have put extra purchase into the backstay and my experience is that easing the additional tension in the backstay and dropping it back to its standard setting does make a difference.
Martin&Rene Hanse 341 Dipper Wheel steering, 3 cabin layout, normally based in Scotland
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2022 at 11:17
So what you are saying is that if you ease the backstay you put greater load on the jib & the furler by way of the halyard. That does not make it easier to furl. It just means that one has to ease more halyard.
But to each his own & what works for one may well work for another. Offering up possible solutions is always worthwhile in the grand scheme of things.
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin&Rene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2022 at 17:10

Apologies, as it looks like my explanation was not very clear as it appears the understanding that you have of it is contrary to what I meant.

The scenario that I envisage is that at the start of a trip, you tighten the jib halyard and so induce a certain tension in the halyard, jib luff and an axial load on the furler bearings.  Later in the day whilst you are sailing, you tighten the backstay further, which, to a lesser or greater extent, will increase the tension in the jib halyard, the tension of the jib luff and the axial loading of the furler bearings.

My comment in the original post was

“don't forget to ease the back stay slightly if you have tensioned it up in strong winds.”

By this I meant that if you have put additional tension into the backstay whilst you were sailing, then you should ease it back to the level that you had set when you first started your trip.  This would mean that the tensions in the jib halyard, jib luff and the axial loads in the furler bearings revert to the original levels that were present when you first started sailing.

Whether this action is significant or required can partly depend on;

a)    a)   whether you follow the manufacturer’s instruction to “Never slacken the genoa halyard when furling”.

b)      b) you have decided to disregard the manufacturer’s instructions, as you feel you have adopted a procedure so that you can ease the jib halyard and not get a halyard wrap.  


Martin&Rene Hanse 341 Dipper Wheel steering, 3 cabin layout, normally based in Scotland
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2022 at 19:14
I already have 24-26% tension in my upper stays. How much extra tension & resulting stretch do you think I am going to get in my forestay by tensioning the backstay & how much more will that relate to the stretch in the halyard in mm




Edited by samuel - 09 October 2022 at 19:16
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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