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370/400 what sails do you use for racing?

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gshannon View Drop Down
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: BC Canada
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gshannon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2009 at 00:54
We have just one spinnaker. Actually we had two, but loaned one to another Hanse 371 owner.

When Cruising we set it without a pole, using a device called The Tacker which goes around the furled jib. It lets a regular spinnaker be used like an asym.  It works well on a beam reach. Downwind it works well "wing and wing" but poor on a broad reach where it is blanketed by the main.

Cruising to Alaska last summer, mostly downwind, we often used the spinnaker with no main. We have a "snuffer" which we use when cruising.  Racing we use the pole and no snuffer, set the sail from a valise on deck and take it down into the cockpit.
Grahame

Tangleberry 371-092

aviadesign.com
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Kymo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kymo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2013 at 16:29
Hi All,

On my 2009 H400 there are no backing plates in the cabin roof.
Has anyone found away to sheet a 108% jib in such a way that it is effective? Sheeted on the main genoa tracks you loose too much pointing ability.

Thanks,
Wijnand.
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Rubato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2013 at 19:17
Wignand,
You've found one of the disadvantages of the newer Hanse designs....
 
I believe you have 3 choices:
1. Remove the interior roof panels and install your own backing plates
2. Rig an inner hauler system (I initially tried this on my 400 and was not happy with the result)
3. Go with a "Lapper" from Evolution Sails. This is very large roached jib that uses the existing self tacking track - I believe the total area of the sail ends up around 105%. Evolution here in Canada claims it works extremely well.
 
Steve
Steve

Hanse 400e, #168
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silversailor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silversailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 02:44
Originally posted by Rubato Rubato wrote:

Since you asked, here’s some personal opinions and observations regarding the racing performance of my Hanse 400e. Hopefully you’ll find it helpful in evaluating some of the options that you may be considering.

First, it’s necessary to put this in context from two aspects; the racing environment that I’m in (Vancouver, BC, Canada) and the boat configuration that I have.

Vancouver racing environment – I do most of racing in a Vancouver Area Racing Council (VARC) set of races that starts in late march and finishes in late October. There are 5 or 6 divisions that race. The boats are allocated to different divisions according to rating only. I race in Division 2 which has a rating range of GPH = 600.1 to 630 as calculated by ORC Club. There are not enough boats racing to further break this down into light versus heavy boats. This results in a division where there is a very large range of yacht weight, type, etc. It is an extremely competitive division and includes the following: J109, J35/36/37, Dash34, Ben First 36.7, Ben 10R, Antrim 27, C&C 44, SR33, Grand Surprise. Quite a range! The races are broken into 2 types – “round the cans” (windward/leeward) and distance. As you would guess, it’s difficult for a large heavy boat to compete effectively in light air in round the cans style racing with something a third it’s weight but that’s what we quite often try to do…  So now you understand what I mean by the term “competitive”.

Winds in the Vancouver area can vary greatly but I’d characterize them primarily in the light to medium range 5 – 10 knots with the average in the 6-8 knot range. We get the odd race where we see 15-25 knots but they are few and far between. So Vancouver’s average wind range is lighter than the ideal for a Hanse.

Rubato configuration – late 2006 production 400e, standard keel, traveler in the cockpit, primary winches (46s) in the more forward position, 108% Vectran Genesis Platinum jib sheeted to cabin top mounted tracks, 581 ft2 Vectran Genesis Platinum main, Code 6 0.75oz Symmetrical Spinnaker (1422 ft2, uses over sized Carbon pole, 16.75’ long), PBO backstay.

Current Competitiveness – Rubato is quite competitive in the wind range of about 9 knots (4.5 m/s) and above. In wind speeds above 14 knots (or thereabouts) we are very competitive (dominating?). In the 7-8 knot range we are disadvantaged and when the wind goes light, below 6 knots, we might as well break out the beer and rum. The boat is definitely suited more to the longer distance races than to round the cans. This is for 2 reasons; weight and pointing ability. Weight – it’s a heavy boat so you accelerate slower out of tacks and going around marks. Pointing ability is okay but not great; particularly in the lighter stuff. It’s only a few degrees off most other boats but it’s noticeable. On longer distance races you are generally sailing on a broader range of angles to the wind. So distance races are better for the boat versus  windward/leeward courses where being lighter and having the best pointing ability really gives an advantage.

So here are some notes about some of the decision made so far. The reason for picking the sails that I did was available funds – I didn’t have a lot of money to invest in a wide range of sails or to experiment so it was a best guess. It was unknown what wind range the 108% jib would be competitive.
PBO Backstay – the standard main is very close to the backstay already. The racing main has more roach than the standard main so the objective was to get a more flexible backstay that make it easier for the main to tack/gybe across in lighter breezes. It didn’t help, don’t bother with this mod, it’s a pain to tack/gybe in light air period.
Rig Tension – this is very very important. Use the selden tuning guide, the North guide, and get a Loos tension gauge to set up your rig.  This type of rig (frac with swept spreader, no running backstay) is one of the tougher to setup and the tensions are the highest of all the configurations. Not a problem but very important to achieve good performance.
“Jib Sheeting point”
– to minimize the modifications made to the boat when it was first launched, we tried to sheet the jib to a point just behind the shroud base (basically in line with the standard genoa track but further forward). We rigged an innerhauler system to trim the sheet further inboard when necessary. This did not work very well at all. Biggest reason was that the clew of the jib was fairly low and close to the sheeting point so the innerhauler had very little ability to bring the foresail inboard. For such a system to work more effectively you need the clew higher so there is a fair bit of sheet between the clew and the car, otherwise the sheet and the innerhauler are just fighting each other. At the beginning of season 2 I installed the cabin top track using the aluminum backing plates built into the boat by Hanse. It works very well.
Overlapping foresail – is needed to be more competitive in “light air”, under 6-7 knots breeze as mentioned above. I’m currently contemplating ordering one but haven’t decided on a size yet. I’d prefer something in the 130-135% range but doubt it will work well, here’s why….  Our boats have a fairly wide shroud base (distance between the shrouds). Whatever overlapping foresail we get, it has to go around these shrouds.  For larger overlaps, say 140 or bigger, the shroud can start to fit into the deeper part of the sail. This isn’t the case for smaller overlaps and it therefore affects your ability to point. So we can point better with a 150 versus a 120. This is a well known problem with this config on many boats (e.g. J-109). Our problem is that if we go with a big overlap, the 150 say, we’ll become overpowered quicker (sooner), than something smaller. That’s the tradeoff.
Spinnakers – Asymmetrical spinnakers are easier to cruise with. However, to be competitive on the race course with one, it should be on a bow sprit.  Hanses don’t have a bow sprit (no, that 6” metal extension is not a bow sprit) and this effects how deep the boat can sail with an asymmetrical. Above 10 knots of breeze, a Hanse with a symmetrical chute and pole will sail deeper than one with an asymmetrical. I chose a code 6 symmetrical. Standard would be a code 5, the code 6 pole is oversized at 16.75’ giving the kite a broader base, this adds stability. Higher aspect ratio kites are less stable. Rubato’s config works well. Only thing I’d say is make sure that the spinnaker pole car is a ball bearing type so that it can be adjusted easily under load.
Mainsheet and Traveler – is a must in the cockpit for competitive racing. There just isn’t the ability to make the continual adjustments to traveler and mainsheet when all the controls are on the cabin top. For the main sheet, we currently have a 6:1/24:1 coarse/fine tune system. It works okay but in general it’s too hard to get harden the main enough with the coarse tune and the fine tune doesn’t have enough “travel” to harden the main up afterward. We’ve decided to move the 46 sized primary winches back to the more rearward position and use these on the mainsheet in an “Admiral’s Cup” configuration.
Winches - We’ll be putting 50 size winches in as primaries. This will help with trimming the 108% jib which is currently tough in breezes above 14 knots. This winch size is more appropriate for an overlapping foresail as well.

So that's my opinion, take it for what it's worth and remember, you get what you pay for :)

Steve


Its interesting how similar my experiences are to Steve's.  I have an early production 370e (hull #9), shallow draft (5'2"), coachtop traveler ahead of companionway, which I bought as a cruiser.  However, I now also race in Lake Michigan, USA.  Our conditions are similar to Vancouver and we soon found that we could just not be competitive in light air with either our self tacker or even our cruise dacron 135.  Now, we use a laminate 153 (no penalty under PHRF for a foresail 155 or less) which we use in winds up to 15K which has helped considerably. Our biggest disadvantage continues to be pointing ability.  I plan on carefully checking and adjusting the rigging tension before next season.  Hopefully, that will help.

On short races, we generally enter the jib and main class.  On distance races, we are comfortable running our asym spinnaker.  No, we can't get as deep as with a sym spin but that hasn't disadvantaged us. Our "sprit" is 12".  Anything longer will result in a rating penalty.


Silversailor
South Haven, MI USA
S/V Legacy
2010 Andrews 28
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Swanji View Drop Down
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Joined: 28 March 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swanji Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 07:01
Hi Folks

Really informative posts these. Many thanks from a cruiser but a serial tweaker cruiser who loves chasing down other boats
Onwards and upwards

Nidri, Levkada, Ionian, Greece

Hanse 350 #7, SY Evolution, standard keel, 3YM20 sail drive, 3 cabins, cherry wood interior, teak decks, feathering prop
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