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Hanse 418 Rudder damage

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Sailing_Aurora View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 February 2020 at 17:10
Hi guys,

Need a little advice here if possible. Earlier in the year our boat was out on charter and it was run aground, just in soft mud, I think with maybe a coupe of rocks also. When they tried to get of the mud this caused some scrapes to the keel (not worried about that) but it also caused the bottom of the rudder to be damaged. See youtube or dropbox link below:

and also 

Originally the boatyard said that holes would have to be drilled in the rudder to let it dry out inside the rudder over winter and then filled once dry. This is because it is made it two parts and bonded together, so there is just foam on the inside. The fix seemed fairly sound to me.

However, nothing seemed to be happening over the winter and I recently asked what is the plan. "Drilling holes is no longer the plan as the winter has been warm up here, it should be dry in there now" he said. I raised some concerns and was basically told that I know nothing and also told to "F off". Thank you Gåshaga marina.

So as you can imagine I am a little concerned about the fix, I do not want them to simply patch it up. If there is still water inside the rudder I do not want a catastrophic failure it in years to come.

I am following Sail life on youtube and Mads has been using a moisture meter to measure hull osmosis, which could be an option but it's a pretty expensive unit. Comes in at about £400


Or I could hire an independent consultant who knows the signs to look for also with a moisture meter to check it out.

Any advice/thoughts is welcome guys as this is worrying me a little. Thanks in advance
Chris Job
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Mark_J1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark_J1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2020 at 19:37
Can’t speak to the quality of the boatyards thinking however is the repair being covered by your insurance company?  If so, it’s not unreasonable to want a surveyor to sign-off on the repair strategy and execution. Surveyor will definitely employ a moisture meter!  Also, a new rudder from Jefa is ’only’ approx 3000 Euros, so also keep that in mind in evaluating top end of repair cost. Not that difficult to drop the rudder and replace. Even if insurance only covers some of it at least you have the reassurance it’s a solid rudder. 

Mark

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Captain Cook View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Cook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2020 at 19:49
Moisture meters starts at prices under € 10. In Scandinavia they are quite common for checking the moisture in wooden logs, so maybe you have a friend who own one.
In the youtube video I see a white triangle at the top of the rudder. I hope this is not associated with the damage at the bottom? One could fear, that the rudder had flexed/deformed, causing the paint/fibreglass to flake off in the top.
Freya H400 #27 (2006), 40HP 3JH4E, 2-cabin, 3-blade Flexofold, Aries LiftUp Windvane, Exturn 300, Jefa DD1,Simrad NX40,Icom M603(VHF)+M802(SSB)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S&J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2020 at 22:58
Welcome to the forum!
I don't think the white areas at the top of the rudder are anything to worry about.  This will be the radius 20cm or so from the rudder stock that must use an aluminium compatible antifouling rather than a copper based antifoul.
On my grey antifoul I use a black antifouling intended for props and sternd in this area.
I'd suggest contacting Jefa and see what they recommend for the repair.


Edited by S&J - 23 February 2020 at 23:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carlosailfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2020 at 10:58
Hi Chris,
i have seen most of your  YouTube films and congrats with your beautiful boat. I also saw the story about the grounding and the rudder damage what happened to you. Can imagine this hurts.
Looking closely to the pictures your rudder seems to have a split between the two shells. So one thing is sure, water will be inside. But as the other members mention, first insurance and experts. If this is not working, a repair can always be done by drying it out with the helping hand of a vacuum treatment. This evacuates the latest particle of moisture and makes it reparable. At least that is how I would proceed.
Any way hope you will find the best solution for you and let this not destroy the fun. We all are careful but sailors who never head any damage probably never sailed.


Best regards
/C
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sailing_Aurora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2020 at 20:44
Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the advice, messages and condolences Smile

The damage is covered first by the deposit from the charter itself and if it exceeds the max amount it will go on the insurance, so I am not too worried about that, I just want the fix to be done properly. Don't worry it does not get me down, I am just in disagreement with the boat yard as I have no reassurances that they have checked with a moisture meter, they/he said that "It has been a warm winter so it will be dry inside" and then proceeded to get angry when I questioned the change in repair tactic and the fact I wanted to check with a meter.

Anyways, maybe it is dry.... but I just want that confirmation. So first I will contact Jefa (this will be a great reference to show the yard their recommendations), great idea. If necessary I will phone a surveyor/recommended yacht technician tomorrow to see if I can get a second opinion.

If I can't get someone to look at it, then I will probably end up buying a moisture meter anyway, doing research and checking it myself before the repair is done. It will probably be useful in the future.

True about the antifouling at the top of the rudder
Jefa quotes "Important: Strip back/do not use any metal-based antifouling within 50mm of rudder bearings or shaft."

Regarding the moisture meter, I have been looking around a little and noticed that there are specific ones for GRP as I noted in the link in my fist post, these are more expensive though. Is this the usual 50% markup because it's a marine product? or can anyone recommend any cheaper one that works for GRP and is none destructive/invasive?

Your advice is really appreciated guys, thanks
Chris Job
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2020 at 21:32
My experience of meters is within the building industry & my own meter was purchased for my joinery business. I purchased mine 30 years ago so If my comments are found to be out of date please accept my apologies.
Please be aware that some meters do not read down to a low enough moisture level. ( you need to know what level you consider to be acceptable) Those that read lower levels cost more. To measure the level within kiln dried timber, meters for measuring the dampness for DPCs in buildings, for instance, would be useless.(mine cost several hundred£'s at the time)
When i purchased mine there were 2 options. those with probes that had to be pushed into the material & my one which had a pair of pads that sent an electrical charge into the material. You need that sort as you cannot stick probes into GRP.
I do not know about meters specifically for GRP but generally a meter needs a calibration certificate & you need to know what it was calibrated against. You then have a table showing the adjustments to be applied for different materials (in my case timber). So it is not just a case of sticking the meter on the piece of grp. You take a reading & apply the adjustment.A rudder has foam within the construction & is not just GRP so as the probes electrical pulse penetrates, it will get a different reading to something that is solid GRP.( i am guessing)
One way to check the rudder moisture content, is to go to a section of hull that you consider to be acceptably dry. Take some readings in that area & work out an average. Try another Hanse rudder perhaps!!
Then go to the rudder & take your readings. If you find that the rudder readings match the first ones you are Ok. if not then you have a problem.
This is one way of getting over the problem of not having the correct tables, a calibration certificate or a specific GRP monitor. You can also get errors with poor battery power.
It will also show the yard that you have some idea what you are doing.
So when you buy the meter check if what i am saying is still correct then make your choice



Edited by samuel - 27 February 2020 at 21:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sailing_Aurora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2020 at 21:41
Hi Samuel,

Sounds like you know what you are talking about, really this is good advice and thanks. I just need some good recommendations on the unit. Although there are a few options, I saw the Tramex one on the Sail Life YouTube channel while he was doing osmosis treatment and it seemed pretty good.


Sail Life

Dammit, there's the boat saying again "Break Out Another Thousand"
Chris Job
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samuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2020 at 21:52
Sorry! I  had forgotten Google & you tube. I am too "old school" I should have realised that you had probably already researched that. I need to "try & keep up" as my offspring keep telling me
Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex
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Sailing_Aurora View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sailing_Aurora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2020 at 21:54
Haha, no worries. Learn't a few things there from you. Good to know to reference the known dry parts to the potential wet ones
Chris Job
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