Hybrid lead/ lithium install

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   Thanks Arcadia. Great to hear that's working out!
Did you need to change any other components? My concern is mostly about the alternator. If it tries to charge a fairly empty lithium bank it's going to push a lot of amps.

Also, in your install, I suppose the BMS of each battery in the bank may trigger at somewhat different times based on individual SoC. Do they come back online on their own once the charging source is removed?

I am mostly concerned about something like solar overcharging the lithium. The Bank Manager I linked above is supposed to gracefully disconnect the lithium bank once it detects that the lithium is fully charged based on its charge absorption rate. They claim that the BMS disconnect is meant to protect the battery from damage rather than a safe charging limit. 

In either case I am trying to avoid adding DC/ DC chargers.

Edited by lide - 21 November 2024 at 22:38

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lide Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Joined: 25 January 2024 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 30	Post Options Post Reply Quote lide Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 22:37
	Thanks Arcadia. Great to hear that's working out! Did you need to change any other components? My concern is mostly about the alternator. If it tries to charge a fairly empty lithium bank it's going to push a lot of amps. Also, in your install, I suppose the BMS of each battery in the bank may trigger at somewhat different times based on individual SoC. Do they come back online on their own once the charging source is removed? I am mostly concerned about something like solar overcharging the lithium. The Bank Manager I linked above is supposed to gracefully disconnect the lithium bank once it detects that the lithium is fully charged based on its charge absorption rate. They claim that the BMS disconnect is meant to protect the battery from damage rather than a safe charging limit. In either case I am trying to avoid adding DC/ DC chargers. Edited by lide - 21 November 2024 at 22:38

Arcadia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admiral Joined: 27 November 2017 Location: Sag Harbor, USA Status: Offline Points: 1112	Post Options Post Reply Quote Arcadia Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 22:43
	As far as charging goes. Yes, the Lithiums will disconnect one at a time from the alternator finally leaving only the AGM charging. This usually happens within a few minutes of each other. However, the BMS’s although disconnected from the charger, will always stay connected to any loads that are present. They do this seamlessly, so they are never truly disconnected. Only from any INFLOW of current.
	Leon / ARCADIA 2018 Hanse 588 Sag Harbor, NY

Arcadia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admiral Joined: 27 November 2017 Location: Sag Harbor, USA Status: Offline Points: 1112	Post Options Post Reply Quote Arcadia Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 22:51
	Also, my Volvo D3 is equipped with a 180 amp alternator which get pretty warm, but still alive after 3 years of lithium. The batteries I purchased have the latest generation of BMS. It cuts off the charge once the cell internal balancing function is done. This usually happens within 20 minutes or so of reaching 14 volts. So, it does protect from damage as well as overcharge. I spoke to the company and they told me that they programmed for slight under charge so that 95 percent of capacity is reached but lifetime is drastically increased in this way…as is safety. I like that. I’m familiar with the Battery Manager product and it is a good design. It was unnecessary in my configuration but may be useful with solar. However, as long as solar charge remains at 14 volts you will be fine.
	Leon / ARCADIA 2018 Hanse 588 Sag Harbor, NY

Arcadia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admiral Joined: 27 November 2017 Location: Sag Harbor, USA Status: Offline Points: 1112	Post Options Post Reply Quote Arcadia Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 22:57
	The DC to DC chargers pose a problem in that they will drastically reduce your maximum charge current thereby increasing charge time. They will protect a small alternator from burning up however ! If you’re going to take advantage of the high capacity and fast recharge of lithium, you would be best served by installing a high output alternator that won’t self destruct. The batteries I used were exactly the same size as the AGM’s I removed so the physical install was easy. The only wiring I did was the selector switch and a bit of rerouting of the main DC board.
	Leon / ARCADIA 2018 Hanse 588 Sag Harbor, NY

Arcadia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admiral Joined: 27 November 2017 Location: Sag Harbor, USA Status: Offline Points: 1112	Post Options Post Reply Quote Arcadia Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 23:00
	For anyone interested, after extensive research and testing, these are the units I used. https://www.litime.com/products/12v-230ah-plus-lifepo4-battery?currency=USD&variant=43846095339740&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google+Shopping&stkn=a05d7c18f02e&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAApCuQrdAGXvaA5xDtPJzP94-rUwFa&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInaSnk8PuiQMVRVBHAR3fsh67EAYYAyABEgKA_vD_BwE
	Leon / ARCADIA 2018 Hanse 588 Sag Harbor, NY

lide Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Joined: 25 January 2024 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 30	Post Options Post Reply Quote lide Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 23:07
	Thanks for the input WW. The alternator is stock as is every other part of the system so far. I'm actually trying to avoid making the charging sources 'Lithium-aware'. Especially, since something like the alternator is charging the lead-acid starter battery as primary and will need to charge the lithium in parallel so it's hard to make every charging source optimized to stop charging when the lithium is full.

lide Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Joined: 25 January 2024 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 30	Post Options Post Reply Quote lide Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 23:13
	Thanks Arcadia. Great system! Yes. looks like there's a high output alternator in my future. Though I was hoping the internal temperature protection of the stock alternator will reduce output as its temperature rises. Not sure if that's reliable enough. Edited by lide - 21 November 2024 at 23:16

Arcadia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admiral Joined: 27 November 2017 Location: Sag Harbor, USA Status: Offline Points: 1112	Post Options Post Reply Quote Arcadia Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 23:32
	You can use a thermal controller to cut off the alternator field voltage at a preset temp. The alternator will stop output until it cools off and start again. Like a thermostat. https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-Controller-Display-Digital-Thermostat/dp/B07VNVWCBS/ref=sr_1_21?crid=3U0DSPC0JSTMF&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.41cKDiPbjZmOK730WQddYag5jFcwLTZWjLfcqfIi6PPGjHj071QN20LucGBJIEps.1uGXnXigBXdgXyRpQlSgzDOviHCkld_siLG5Ymv7ZD4&dib_tag=se&keywords=thermal%2Bswitch%2B12v&qid=1732231461&sprefix=Thermal%2Bswitch%2Caps%2C106&sr=8-21&th=1
	Leon / ARCADIA 2018 Hanse 588 Sag Harbor, NY

lide Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Joined: 25 January 2024 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 30	Post Options Post Reply Quote lide Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 23:36
	Thanks. I'll keep a check on temps once it's all installed and then decide on either a supplementary cutoff or a high output alternator that has the additional benefit of high output.

32mike Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commadore Joined: 26 March 2020 Location: FLorida, US Status: Offline Points: 453	Post Options Post Reply Quote 32mike Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2024 at 23:58
	You could also go the external alternator regulator route. Wakespeed and, I think Sterling make one. There’s also a newer one called Arco Zeus, which is probably the priciest of the three. They can control the charging rate so as to not overheat your alternator.
	Mike S/V Dulces Sueños 458 #087 Tampa, FL



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