Lack or power: windlass / folding anchor system

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   Many of you may have chosen the folding anchor system for their 470. So did I and I would like to ask you for your experience and advice. This summer I have anchored a few times and had barely enough strength with my windlass/anchor system to lift the anchor (even with no wind and no waves!). I realize that due to the many turns the anchor chain has to take before arriving at the windlass, a lot of friction is created. I am also aware of previous threads in this forum dealing with improving the situation for the normal anchor system. I would be interested though to find out whether in your boats the anchor is also difficult to lift and what your recommendations are to improve the situation. Unfortunately, the windlass cannot just be positioned in a more direct line with the extending anchor because of the fold-back system. Thus I wonder whether it may help to mount a windlass with more power? What else could be done?

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Kytho Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Commander Joined: 05 June 2008 Status: Offline Points: 81	Post Options Post Reply Quote Kytho Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Lack or power: windlass / folding anchor system Posted: 22 December 2008 at 21:30
	Many of you may have chosen the folding anchor system for their 470. So did I and I would like to ask you for your experience and advice. This summer I have anchored a few times and had barely enough strength with my windlass/anchor system to lift the anchor (even with no wind and no waves!). I realize that due to the many turns the anchor chain has to take before arriving at the windlass, a lot of friction is created. I am also aware of previous threads in this forum dealing with improving the situation for the normal anchor system. I would be interested though to find out whether in your boats the anchor is also difficult to lift and what your recommendations are to improve the situation. Unfortunately, the windlass cannot just be positioned in a more direct line with the extending anchor because of the fold-back system. Thus I wonder whether it may help to mount a windlass with more power? What else could be done?

John Allison Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 23 November 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 742	Post Options Post Reply Quote John Allison Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 December 2008 at 09:40
	There are a couple of things you can do immediately to assist your situation. 1. File out the grooves in the bronze rollers - especially the one set onto the floor of the winch locker. We found with 10mm chain into the 10mm roller groove resulted in jams - due to wider link welds. 2. Move the winch itself closer to the centre line. You'll find there is room to do this and still fold back the anchor mechanism. 3. Consider adding a manual winch mechanism to the starboard side of the Lewmar winch. The add-on costs very little and it's a comfort as back up if you ever find the electric winch can't cope. You'll only be able to fit this and get a handle in to use it if you move the winch more inboard (as suggested in 2 above). 4. Cut an inspection hole in the floor alongside the winch so when the chain jams in the hawse hole below the drum (it will), you can more easily get your arm and hand below the floor to help unblock the jam. Sad to report that even with all this done you'll still experience enough frustration with the set up so as to wonder just why Hanse could not get it better engineered. I believe an Italian could do it better:-) But we made all the above mods early days on our 461 - and have visited lots of anchorages - and have not yet decided to sell the boat because of the bad design in this one area. Although I've come close a few times:-) JOHN Edited by John Allison - 01 January 2009 at 13:45
	No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had!

Kytho Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Commander Joined: 05 June 2008 Status: Offline Points: 81	Post Options Post Reply Quote Kytho Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 December 2008 at 11:26
	Dear John Many thanks for these very concrete measures. All of them look promising, and I will work on implementing them. When moving the windlass closer to the center line, I presume I have to also remount the bronze roller into the right orientation (see pic)? A remaining question would be (also for other 470 owners): with all the things done John proposed, would it additionally help to have a stronger windlass (e.g. 1500W instead of a 1000W)? And if so what product would be recommended? And finally, what is the experience of other 470 sailors that have a folding anchor? Do you have problems with lifting the anchor, and if so, how do you deal with them? Merry Christmas, Kytho

lukemi Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commadore Joined: 06 February 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 439	Post Options Post Reply Quote lukemi Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 December 2008 at 13:50
	Kytho Another suggestion. Have you measured the voltage on the Windless? If the leads from the battery are long, there may be sufficient current drop to limit the strength applied to the motor. I have a Vetus Neopolean 1000 W (max 1850 w) on my 370 and have no problem with power to the chain. In fact, the more load on the chain the better. My only problem is when the chain "slacks" for a short time. When this happens, I usually get a kink in the galvaonized chain which usually causes the chain to stop at the gipsy. I then have to stop-forward-reverse to undo this kink. I notice that you have a transistion pully between your windless and the chain guide. I would like to add this to my installation but am not sure where to find this pully. This may help may "slack" problem. Was this a Hanse part or do you have a source for this? Mike Stella Maris 370e#166

John Allison Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 23 November 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 742	Post Options Post Reply Quote John Allison Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 December 2008 at 13:59
	Kythos Sorry did not mention this - a yes to re-aligning the roller. Reposition the winch first, then remove both both roller studs and fill the aft hole, then redrill aligning the pully with the winch. If you do go for a bigger windlass only suggestion I'd make is to ensure it has a manual lever also but to the port side of the unit. Easier to then use in an emergency. Cheers JOHN Edited by John Allison - 23 December 2008 at 14:01
	No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had!

panos Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admiral Joined: 02 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1939	Post Options Post Reply Quote panos Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 December 2008 at 19:29
	Hi, We have a similar looking system ,but a horizontal Lewmar winch which throws the chain directly in the chainbox in front. The winch is a 24V one and has enough power. Our chain is inox which has considerably lower friction and also falls very easy inside the box. Also we have some sort of electronic power regulation that controls the 24v winch motor
	Panos Hanse 630e - selling her -

Brad McMaster Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commadore Joined: 27 September 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 383	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brad McMaster Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 March 2009 at 09:26
	Hi Guys, Think I was away when this discussion started/finished and only found it today as i started seeking answers to a related anchor question. But first my thoughts on this one. I have one of original 470 folding anchor systems (I think the sames as the 461), which is different to the new one shown above in that it doesn't have the hydraulic lift assist but does have an extra brass roller on the arm. I haven't filed out the groove as John suggests (but may well) but similarly i haven't had the same friction issues mentioned. I have however made a point of lubricating to brass rollers when ever i think of it to keep them moving freely. My question though is on the snubber solution people are using on the folding system. I learnt the hard way that hanging off the chain or snubber lead through the roller in a blow for lunch or overnight isn't a great idea. The very limited purchase on the bow (ie that little screw bolt) can't support the potentially high lateral loads that a wind hunting Hanse can produce. I use a snubber hooked on the chain, lead to both bow cleats (with a drogue clipped just below the surface to limit the hunting, an idea courtesy of John A!). This however also has a down side by way of wear on the gel coat for which we will one day add more stainless guards on the gunwhales, and sometimes the snubber hook can chip the bow just on the water line and hence I'd love to be able to get that snubber line a little further out in front of the bow. So my question, 'finally' , is; What are other owners doing aside from a snubber to cleats and the drogue option? Has anyone else experienced concern over the lateral forces on that little screw pin? All and any ideas/solutions welcome! B
	GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/

panos Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admiral Joined: 02 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1939	Post Options Post Reply Quote panos Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 March 2009 at 14:01
	Hi, I totally agree with Brad and we are using the same technique to avoid lateral loads to the (extra long) folding arm. We use a inox chain hook attached to a long line to direct the anchor loads to the mooring cleats. Thus the only loads to the folding arm are the anchor retrieval ones. Even those are sometimes dangerous and involve lateral as well as vertical loads. Specially if we are retrieving the anchor in windy and wavy conditions it is possible that the arm jumps out of the small screw bolt causing it to bend permanently . I designed a new holding pin with a tongue and groove system that is applied by a lever. When applied it prevents the arm from rising. I will post photographs when this new system is ready, next weekend. Hanse also proposed a similar system involving a screw and nut, but I think it is very difficult and potentially dangerous to unscrew things that are hanging out of the boat, even in calm conditions. Edited by panos - 15 March 2009 at 14:02
	Panos Hanse 630e - selling her -

Brad McMaster Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commadore Joined: 27 September 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 383	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brad McMaster Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 March 2009 at 21:46
	Hey Panos, Arh, great I'm glad I'm not alone on this one. Looking forward to seeing the potential solution you've come up with. When i think about it if the conical shape through which the screw bolt works had an additional and deeper cylindrical extension on bottom it might work. At the moment the conical shape helps find the female receptor but when lateral loads are applied the conical shapes natural movement is firs across but then up and out. Therefore a cylindrical extension might take more of the sideways movement and a both that is beefier and deeper would always help too! Looking forward to the evolution of this one! B
	GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/

Richard108 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Captain Joined: 02 October 2006 Status: Offline Points: 263	Post Options Post Reply Quote Richard108 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 March 2009 at 01:53
	Hi Brad You can see the extensive changes we made to our 540 anchoring system at http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1333&PID=19229#19229 In the first and third picture you can see the little vertical supports we have added to the stainless plate we got made for the bow that also supports our bow sprit. These stainless vertical supports give some better lateral support to the folding anchor arm. In respect to the snubber we use a much longer snubber somewhere between 5 and 10 metres from the point of the attachment to the cleats to the anchor chain. The heavier the conditions the longer the snubber we use. If using all chain in heavy weather a long snubber is needed to ease some of the shock loads that can be experienced. Also we use a prusik knot instead of having a hook. Prusik knots for use with a snubber are more secure as they are not going to jump off the chain or bend or break. http://www.animatedknots.com/prusik/index.php
	Regards Richard ("Moksha" 540 #115 delivered Sept 2007) Pittwater, Sydney, Australia



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