Racing 470 or 461
Printed From: myHanse.com
Category: Hints & Tips
Forum Name: 461 / 470
Forum Description: 461 / 470 Hints and Tips
URL: https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1096
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 03:40
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Racing 470 or 461
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Subject: Racing 470 or 461
Date Posted: 06 March 2007 at 18:19
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Hi everyone!
New to this forum and considering buying a 470e for the dual pleasures of racing in IRC events and cruising in SE Asia.
I realize the 470e is a new model and mostly sold in Europe (and most of you wouldn't have had much opportunity yet to race/sail unless you're in the Med) but has anyone raced one under IRC yet? What rating do your carry? Any results? What boats are you competing against?
I am encouraged by some of the comments in this forum about the 470e and the 461 performing well in lighter winds. We enjoy some monsoonal seasons with decent breeze in SE Asia but in between it is mostly light air racing/sailing.
I am also encouraged by John Allison's purchase of a code-0 sail. I assume you (John) are planning to race with that sail. This is a very useful sail for light-air reaching in SE Asia.
We currently own/race a Sydney40 but my wife and I are getting tired of pouring $$$ into the A-division racing "black hole" and she wants something more comfortable and easier to 2-hand.
Hope this can kick off a decent discussion!
Thanks,
Bill
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Replies:
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 07 March 2007 at 19:47
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Hi Bill,
Welcome to the site. I've done some sailing in SE Asia years past - including one Fremantle to Bali 10 days on a Farr 1020.
I also like the Sydneys. Top boat.
We've no rating on our 461 but would also like to see the numbers if anyone gets one measured - but we gave up club / class racing quite a few years back.
However, Sue tells me I still 'race' every other boat we pass - but that's about the extent of it - but the 461 and assume 470's are very very quick.
But to be honest about flat out racing - the gear set up which works oh so well for two hands - is not IMHO the best for a race crew.
For example, the secondary winches which most would use to trim spinnakers are too far aft for anyone inside the cockpit to use continually in a comfortable manner.
They are beautifully placed for me behind the wheel to tweak once in a while - but simply not positioned well for a race crew to access from in front of the wheels.
Also the instrumentation they'd want to view for trimming is all also best set behind the wheels - wrong spot for race crew members even though ideal for helmsman!
Plus the self tacking headsail - hard (OK lets say impossible) to trim on its own track (and I'd suggest second choice over a regular genoa if you'd want to win light air races).
So to kind of answer the question. No, we don't race. Anymore.
Our code 0 is only to blast to windward in lighter winds or reach / run in fresher stuff and leave the likes of cruising Farr 50's in our wake. Or as once happened, to scare the occassional Farr 40 race boat with crew stacked on the top edge. Good fun stuff - highly effective sail by Quantum.
So good luck with whatever you get. Any Q's on the 461 always happy to respond with my views.
Cheers
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 08 March 2007 at 15:02
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Hi John,
Thanks for your detailed reply - very much appreciated!
I've been pondering the set-up and you've hit on a couple of key points for me. Yes, fantastic 2-hander yacht - which is a big part of the equantion for me - but I think with a little re-config we could rig the cockpit for proper spinnaker control.
Where do you currently run your code zero sheets? In your opinion, is there somewhere near the pushpits to clip a spin block and is there then a clear path to the coachroof for some two-speed winches? The lack of detailed photos on the www makes judging this difficult (and no dealer near me with one in stock).
I notice the Beneteau First 50 has coachroof winches but I think the Hanse 470 will be a faster yacht up/down the racecourse given the massive rig and more racing-originated lines. Plus the mainsail control set-up of the Bene50 leaves me puzzled - no traveller and a massive pedestal winch on the middle of the cockpit sole.
Does anyone think a traveller track could be mounted where the two current fixed blocks are? Really need a traveller if any racing is to happen... and no penalty on IRC for adding one I believe.
I agree the self-tacker would be bad in an IRC race - despite the huge credit the RORC would give (in addition to the furler credit). I thought a 110% to 115% North 3DL all purpose jib (vertically battened furling) might be the go for regattas.
Re: instruments, I was thinking of B&Gs instead of Simard or Raymarine and mounting a some 20/20 repeaters on the mast below the gooseneck and one FFD somewhere further forward in the cockpit for crew control.
On a related topic - does anyone have the polar speed projections for the 470e? Would be very interested in seeing these - especially some spinnaker projections.
Lastly, has anyone thought of dropping a carbon stick in the 470e instead of the tin rig? At over 24 m the current rig must weigh heaps (anyon know how much?). Just a thought - the centre of effort would be significantly lowered with the carbon rig and in bigger air she would probably need reefing a bit later.
Thanks again John.
Cheers,
Bill
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Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 08 March 2007 at 16:17
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Hi Bill,
Responses in the body of your text...........
My pleasure
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Singapore Bill wrote:Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 09 March 2007 at 23:56
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Hmmm... this avenue is getting harder and harder to conceive. I was hoping cheek-blocks could be mounted on the decks to port and starboard of mid-cockpit coamings to run the spin sheets to coachroof (cabin-top) winches. All looking a bit hard at the moment. Really can't properly sail a kite without those winches in the right location.
I really need to make a trip to Europe and spend some time with a knowledgeable dealer (someone who understands the loads involved and the structural strenghts of the boat/decks etc) and run all these ideas past him in detail.
Any suggestions as to which one to speak with? Or maybe go straight to the builder? These boats are not well known in my neck fo the woods. My research to-date has been largely on-line but I keep coming back to the Hanse because of that whopping big rig... and the hull form.
I wonder if they would do a little bit of custom work on the deck during build...
So many quesitons. Need to dig into the Hanse HQ guys.
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Posted By: Colin Merrett
Date Posted: 10 March 2007 at 10:44
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Dear Bill
I have been following your terrific discussion with John and Sue, who have great knowledge and experience of all sorts of boats and sailing. I wear two hats, so have to explain my involvement.
I am Sales Manager at Hanse Yachts UK Ltd, but also a keen and experienced racing sailor/coach in dinghies and yachts. In fact, in 1973 I raced GP14 dinghies at Red Roofs sailing club at the naval base that was on the north side of Singapore island! I would be very happy to discuss boat specification matters with you on mailto:colin@hanseyachts.co.uk - colin@hanseyachts.co.uk if you wish.
With respect - I think you are in danger of falling back into the 'arms race' that you say you want to get away from. Let's go back to basics...
Hanse build innovative cost-effective cruising boats, primarily for short-handed sailing.
However, the Judel/Vrolijk designs used by Hanse Yachts are quick - as John rightly says [in fact I believe that is one of the reasons he bought his 461]. Hanses are competitive across the range and sail well to their handicaps - IRC or local. There are many owners enjoying their club racing all over the world.
I know of only one 461 that has been IRC rated and it was given 1.087 by RORC.
My advice would be to take the boat for what she is and the advantageous handicap that can be achieved - don't try to change her into something she isn't!! Yes, higher technology headsails will definately improve the performance for racing, especially in light and heavy winds. Maybe compromise your desire offwind with an easily handled asymmetric.
Don't worry about mainsheet tracks or carbon rigs and the like. Accept the fittings layout for the compromise it has to be and develop it once you have sailed the boat for a while - I'm afraid the factory is not set up to customise a boat for you [and frankly not interested], but dealers fulfill that role.
Come and sail our demo 470e when you can and we will happily advise you on what is possible. I am confident you won't be disappointed.
Yours in yachting
Ferret ------------- Ferret |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 06:15
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Hi Bill / Colin,
That's the first time I've seen the 461/470 rating and it would be good to know what sails the rating was calculated on.
Two years back we 'raced' our then pretty standard 461 (cruising chute and carbon pole only extras) for most days over three weeks against a race equipped X44 with bigger headsails and experienced crew.
It was whilst taking part in Rally Portugal 04 which was mainly light airs - and we every time not just beat them in, but usually by margins of up to 1 hour over a 6 hour race.
It only confirmed to me how well the standard Hanse went.
Colin and Hanse UK (not piddling in thier pockets here) are IMHO possibly the best EU dealers to work with on your further research, Bill - and I'd back up their suggestions to visit the Hamble for a few days, get out on the yacht, and take it on from there.
One thing is for sure. One would surprise a few flat out race boats if you ever got a 470 alongside in a competitive situation - and suspecting it goes well to its handicap - maybe some changes you suggest are simply not needed to win races.
And you'd also still have one of the best looking super fast cruisers around.....
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: Richard108
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 09:30
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Does anyone know where to find the ratings of a 531 / 540.
------------- Regards Richard ("Moksha" 540 #115 delivered Sept 2007) Pittwater, Sydney, Australia |
Posted By: Colin Merrett
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 11:06
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Dear John, Bill and Richard
The 461 that I know was rated at 1.087 was for 2006 and it has lapsed now. However, it was with folding prop, asymetric spinnaker [no pole].
To see if any Hanses - 461; 470; 531; 540; or 630 - have been been measured for rating I suggest you contact Emma Cary at the R.O.R.C Rating Office in Lymington, England. You will find their web site through Google.
Let me know if you need other information.
Regards
Ferret
------------- Ferret |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 05:50
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Hi Gents,
The person to speak to is Jenny Howells at the RORC. She manages all of the ratings. And if you ever want to chat with her she spends time everyday on http://www.sailinganarchy.com - www.sailinganarchy.com - great website for asking questions about anything and if you're not interested in asking anything it is immensely entertaining regardless (I'm not associated with apart from spending too much time there). Jenny goes by the online name of Jen.
Will reply to the other posts above in detail when I get time (after biz travel).
Rgds,
Bill
(in SFO airport)
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Posted By: Peter White
Date Posted: 16 March 2007 at 11:43
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Hi All
I am a new member and am enjoying all the advice & observations from John & others on the forum. Bill, it sounds like we are in a very similar position. This thread especially interests me as I too am still yet to make a decision on a new yacht, I thought I had made a decision on a new 470, I went to our recent sail expo down here in Sydney, our first look in the flesh at a new 470 & then I looked at a new Beneteau Oceanis 50 whilst there, not really what I am after, I would prefer a more performance oriented boat, but the quality of finish was far better than I remember from a few years ago and that got me rethinking things. I think the level of detail & finish is better on the Beneteau then the Hanse. Got talking to the Benetau rep and then heard about the new First 50, I researched that over the net & I am very impressed with this boat, First Series have always been performance oriented and the contemporary interior fit out really appeals to my wife and I. The specs & numbers seem similar between 470 & First 50. The reason the 470 origially appealed to us was her inherant performance design, ease of sailing short handed and her contempory fitout below. I raced 2 tonners way back for a number of years, so still have the desire to have a performance boat, that I can club race, whilst still being able to comfortably take the family, we have 2 small children 9 & 7, along for weekends etc. This thread has made me rethink things again, I had started to head more towards the First 50, I am now more open minded again. I am heading out for a test sail on the 470 either next week or the next, the first of the Beneteau First 50's arrives in Sydney next month, at which time I will naturally go for a test sail on that also. I would appreciate any further debate on the pros & cons of each that anyone has to offer, especially related to the performance of each and how the 470 might be tweaked, especially given its lack of optioned dedicated spinnaker winches or another location for 2nd primary winches. Our local dealer is heading over to Hanse next month & is going to ask how this issue may best be overcome. Look forward to hearing further on your thoughts Bill after further research. cheers Peter |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 16 March 2007 at 15:05
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Hi Peter,
Thanks for chiming in on this. I am riding on the same fence re: 470e vs First50.
While the First50 is meant to be a cruiser/racer and somewhat IRC-based in design a couple of things really bug me about the design. These include:
1) no traveller on the mainsheet - how can you race a 50-footer w/o a traveller?! not sure what the Bene boys were thinking here;
2) mainsheet winch stuck in the middle of the cockpit - this means your trimmer's weight is inboard for any trimming - not good in heavier air;
3) position of primaries and mainsheet winch - your jib trimmer and main trimmer are going to hate each other after racing because they'll be banging into each other every single tack - why Bene put these in-line athwart-ships is beyond me;
4) mast height - too short - don't know if Bene have a taller performance rig (carbon even?) - maybe you know?
Apart from those I quite like the First50 and I'm very intruiged by your comments on build quality.
What I'm struggling with now is the absence of coachroof winches and traveller on the 470e and how to rectify this. The shorthanded capabilities of the 470e are immensely appealing though I must admit.
I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say after test-sailing both yachts.
Thanks again - let's stay in touch!
Cheers,
Bill
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Posted By: Peter White
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 01:42
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Hi Bill
I think you are right with some of your observations and have commented again in your reponses below: 1) no traveller on the mainsheet - how can you race a 50-footer w/o a traveller?! not sure what the Bene boys were thinking here; - I guess it was the compromise between cruise/race, although I agree with you 100%, I will ask our local guys for a comment back from Bene 2) mainsheet winch stuck in the middle of the cockpit - this means your trimmer's weight is inboard for any trimming - not good in heavier air; - Also true, can't get him on the rail thats for sure, but I would probably put up with it for club racing and the better ability for short handed if I went with the 50. 3) position of primaries and mainsheet winch - your jib trimmer and main trimmer are going to hate each other after racing because they'll be banging into each other every single tack - why Bene put these in-line athwart-ships is beyond me; - Also agree, in an attempt to make the boat easy for short handed control they have failed here, should have the primaries futher forw, it certainly will require some discipline on the part of both trimmers to get a system going that avoids each other. 4) mast height - too short - don't know if Bene have a taller performance rig (carbon even?) - maybe you know? - Specs call up nearly same height as 470 for aluminium & the carbon rig is larger. Standard rig has larger main area and much large jib area than 470, even I suspect with 140% on 470 & if it can be sheeted properly, the Bene has about same or larger jib at 70m2. Total sail area with stand rig they quote as 139m2 against 124m2 for 470 albeit with only the 105% jib. What I'm struggling with now is the absence of coachroof winches and traveller on the 470e and how to rectify this. The shorthanded capabilities of the 470e are immensely appealing though I must admit. - I am going to sail & see quality of both back to back, talk further to both reps about pro's & con's and wait for their possible suggestions for mods at overcoming the issues on both boats. Will keep in touch. cheers Peter |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 05:09
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Hi Peter,
Agree with your comments and thanks for posting.
I guess for mixing racing and cruising the First50 is better laid out with obvious "issues" (but far and above a better yacht when considering proper spin handling straight out of the factory) and headsails (forgot to mention the recessed furler is A-ok in my book on the F50 also).
If the F50 had electric winch controls port and stbd on both rails the main trimmer could ease & trim from the rail (big ask I'm guessing and more holes in decks).
Who is the Hanse dealer that you're dealing with in Australia? I've rcv'd a luke-warm response from the dealer in SE Asia (Phuket). I asked if he had the polars for the 470e 2 weeks ago and he's gone silent on me. At least these are posted on the First50 page - would sure like to compare them (even though most of the time MFG'r polars are complete BS).
Good luck with your test sails. Hope you get reasonably similar conditions for both.
Cheers,
Bill
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Posted By: Peter White
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 07:15
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Hi Bill,
Very good dealer down here, Windcraft Yachts at Bayview in Sydney, link below, I speak to Damien he is very knowledgible and helpful, he is the one going to the Hanse factory in April & whom is asking questions on my behalf. I agree that furler below deck line is very cool & neat. http://windcraft.com.au/default.html cheers Peter |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 08:16
| Thanks - great website. |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 17 March 2007 at 08:52
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Hi Guys,
Can only comment from pictures and specs - and certainly seems the 'standard' Beneteua 50 has cabin top winches.
But stangely note it also has an iron keel?????? So whilst the deck layout might better suit a race crew - have to wonderif they'd have to sit back and watch the 470 storm to windward higher / faster?
Would be very interested to hear back once someone has completed a comparative sail on both both boats.
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: Richard108
Date Posted: 19 March 2007 at 10:04
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Hi Bill I note that the Hanse 470's displacement (12,200 kg) is significantly lighter than the Beneteau 50 (13,780 kg). In light winds when sailing close hauled the larger sail area of the Beneteau 50 at first appearance looks like the beneteau would be a better performing Yacht. However when looking at the displacement per square metre of sail area the boats are much closer. The Hanse 470 has a displacement of 10.16 kg per square metre of sail area and the Beneteau 50 has 10.06 kg. ------------- Regards Richard ("Moksha" 540 #115 delivered Sept 2007) Pittwater, Sydney, Australia |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 19 March 2007 at 11:39
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That ratio is one way of looking at it, yes. But there are several other factors involved. The two most important/impactful of these are:
- where the weight is located (ie. with a carbon rig and a deep draught keel the Bene50 would probably outpace the 470e as centre of effort would be substantially lower)
- sail configuration/material - how easy is headsail change - potential for light air sails? - I like the potential for Code-0 on the 470e though (see John Allison's pix on this in another thread - woohoo!) - somehow can't envision a huge asso code-0 on a Bene... hmmm.
Pittwater eh? Nice. That's where I got my Sydney40 from. Great harbour and great atmos at RPA.
Cheers,
Bill
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Posted By: Richard108
Date Posted: 19 March 2007 at 21:38
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Bill
Pittwater is great but I feel confined and long for the open sea. Can't wait to get my 540 in June.
Have you seen the Carbon mast on the 531 - see links below? http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=430&KW=carbon&PN=3 - http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=430&KW=carbon&PN=3
Apparently you can charter this Carbon masted Hanse in http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=803&KW=carbon - http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=803&KW=carbon
One of the reasons I selected a Hanse over many other boats I looked as was the size of the beds. I love to sail fast and in the open sea but a decent bed is a must. Double beds with little room for too peoples legs (like the First 50 aft cabins) and a main cabin bed that is short on width at the pillow end (like the First 50) leaves me no place to sprawl out on a warm night. The Hanse 470 from what I can see has bigger beds than the Beneteau 50. ------------- Regards Richard ("Moksha" 540 #115 delivered Sept 2007) Pittwater, Sydney, Australia |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 19 March 2007 at 21:57
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Richard,
Hmmm... interesting comparison and one that is important to me as well. I suppose also an observation you could only have made after having laid down in both yachts.
Thanks for sharing that tidbit of info.
Yes, I have seen the carbon rig on "Spirit of GLR". Looks nice and performance is going to be pretty amazing I would think.
Bill
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Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 08:54
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Hi Guys,
Sorry i have been out of it for a bit. Couple of key changes in my life and the delivery of a new 470!! She truely is a special yacht.
Out of interest once i get my feet back on the ground i can help out with photos, advice etc have just taken deliviery and also on the IRC rating. Ours is due anyday now. Interesting to read that a 461 got 1.08, that is the first i had heard and is encouraging!!
Anyways, please ask anything of me and i'll try to help but also keep an eye out and prehaps v early next week i can post a link to a gallery of pics as required.
Brad ------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 15:21
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Thanks Brad - really appreciate it.
A posted scan of the IRC certificate would be very helpful (save any of us having to ask/pay RORC for a copy).
I have just received a test cert for a BeneFirst50 and it rated 1.162 (with a spin sa of 173sq m - French test cert but RORC issued). I have not dug into the translation but I suspect this is with the tin rig. HSA is 71.23 sq m.
I know the comparison is not valid (length, displ, sa etc) but I can't help compare the two as this is where I am decision-wise on my purchase process. So those who are questioning this can just grin and bear it I hope. Thanks.
I love the IRC discussion...
Bill
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Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 15:49
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Hi Bill,
Interestingly i was in the same "boat" as you late last year. The decision btw the two. Now i was comparing the std 50 (not the first) the First 47.7 and the Hanse. When it came time for a test sail the Benneteu bailed due to weather. The hanse was amazing. Strong and stable making amazing progress to windward and providing very little weather helm. The way it is manufactured makes all the difference. The intergal frame and epoxy makes an amazing difference. I didn;t want something that was going to bend and warp down a wave face!!!
And besides the other appeal is a stunning design. Maybe i'm biased (ok i surely am!!) but funny how when looking over the new release first 50 at the boat show in London last Jan i noted so many attributes that are clearly lifted form Hanse's innovation.
If you want to 100% race then do what you will but if you are truely in the middle and need a short handed setup and still want to be very competitive, then the answer is simple.
On the IRC my applicaiton was based on a 140ish asy and a 42 HSA.
Will let you know when the result ------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 28 March 2007 at 14:30
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Right i have my IRC rating in which I’m assuming is the first 470 rating anywhere. it is 1.084, so basically inline with the 461 rating that Colin spoke of. The slight difference could be accounted for in numerous ways, so don’t ask!! With out see the two applications side by side we'll be guessing for some time. Nevertheless I’m pretty happy. That I think will see us being very very competitive this year. We have some time aboard on the weekend and as is the theme at the moment, we were very impressed. Terrific boat speed, fabulously tight angles to the wind…can’t complain. Although with every new boat I have list the length of my arm of things to do. I have taken some pics of the request items. I’ll try to post these, but should they not work. Please PM me and I can forward them over. Brad ------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 14:39
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Hey Brad,
That rating seems very good for a 47ft yacht with a rig that tall. Is that rated with the 105% (?) genoa or the self-taking jib? And what size/type spinnakers? Also, are you using a prod or conventional pole for the rating?
So many questions - sorry mate.
Here's something to compare too - my Sydney40 (41ft) rates 1.152 with 100% jibs, 145sq m kites, 21m alu rig and not an ounce of carbon on board.
I'd be pretty happy with that rating if I were you!
Cheers,
Bill
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Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 16:35
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Hey mate,
That rating is on the self tacking blade. Interesting they did give us a furler restriction so we can carry and use any headsail we like up to (LP < J*1.3). So i take that mean to mean one the way to a 130% genoa.
Kite is 139msq and is a crusing chute soe no pole.
Everything is production spec.
Yeah we are pretty happy with it, now we just need to live up to it!!!
Brad ------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 02 April 2007 at 06:40
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Brad,
Sorry, I don't follow part of your post.
I know that IRC gives rating relief (lower rating) for having a headsail furler. What do you mean by "they did give us a furler restriction"?
If you are rated for a 130% genoa then you probably don't have the furler credit (?).
EDIT: oh wait, the coin just dropped... you are rated with furler up to 130% genoa is that correct?
Cheers,
Bill
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Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 02 April 2007 at 09:20
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Hi Bill, Sorry that is a little confusing isn't it? From what I understand (this is the first time I have rated a yacht) is that they didn’t give us a furler (I wrote DID by mistake, sorry). So if they DID give us the furler restriction then we would only be able to use the one furling sail but that I guess would have resulted in a lower handicap due to the inherent inefficiencies of a furled headsail versus a sail wardrobe. What we have is a right to use as many headsails as we like. So that rating of 1.084 allows us to use multiple headsails with out restriction. The reason for this is that LP is less than LP*1.3 on the blade jib we have for self tacking. Hope that helps Brad ------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 02 April 2007 at 10:25
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Brad,
Terribly sorry, I still don't know what you mean by "furler restriction".
The RORC gives you rating relief (a lower time correction coefficient) for racing with the furler on deck.
They also give relief for other things like teak decks, fully kitted out interior, doors on heads etc - basically, anything that makes the yacht "cruisier". That's why bare-arsed racing yachts (like mine) get such nasty (high) ratings under IRC rule.
Let me ask you this - are you racing with the furler attached and functioning? If yes, then your rating should reflect this. Trouble is we don't have another (w/o furler) against which to compare.
Cheers,
Bill
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Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 02 April 2007 at 10:38
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Hi Bill,
Yep all of what you said is correct. I guess the restriction is that if you have been rated with a furler, then you a restricted to only using that furler and that sail. ie can't use any other headsail bar a storm jib otherwise you have broken the rules of your rating and should retire.
However, becuase the jib on GHOST is so small they have said that we are not restricted to the one sail, we can use any head sail with like. Ie no furler relief.
At least that is my understanding as we have an explicit note on the cert to say multiple headsails can be used, almost like they ahve ignored the furler.
Having said all this my expereience in being involved in this part of the rating process is limited!!
Brad
------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 01:36
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Hi Brad,
Thanks - that clears it up alot - "Multiple headsails permitted."
You did declare the furler as part of your equipment on board while racing though yes? If you did, then you would have received the furler credit (= good thing!). They wouldn't have ignored the furler - it is all taken into consideration.
If you're not sure Jenny Howells is very helpful at the RORC office.
Cheers,
Bill
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Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 08:11
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Hey Bill,
Yeah i have double checked cause you have me doubting myself now!! But we declared everything including furler. The justification given by them for permitting multiple head sails is that the Furler LP is less than 1.3 x J.
Regards
Brad
------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 09:26
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All good news for you!
I suspect you will be very competitive in breeze over 12 or 13 knots. Under that, will be tough against some X-Yachts or Bene First 44.7 or smaller boats like the Sigmas in your patch.
Bill
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Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 09:40
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Hope so...fingers crossed.
and no matter how we fair...personally i think we'll look better doing it!!!! ------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Singapore Bill
Date Posted: 06 April 2007 at 05:11
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Ha ha! Good onya.
As we always say in http://www.sailinganarchy.com - www.sailinganarchy.com "Pix... or it never happened!"
Take you camera w you when the season starts mate.
Happy Easter!
Bill
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