Also advice on how to actually remove the said bearing..cheers

Ahoy Holby

JEFA marine has made rudders for Hanse.

In this link to Jefa's ftp server they have a diagram of a 301 rudder.

https://jefa.com/ftp/old_boat_spare_parts/Hanse/Hanse_301/Hanse_301_Replacement_Rudder.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://jefa.com/ftp/old_boat_spare_parts/Hanse/Hanse_301/Hanse_301_Replacement_Rudder.pdf

It is ø60 in the shaft so it is almost similar to the 311 bearings in this link:

https://jefa.com/ftp/old_boat_spare_parts/Hanse/Hanse_311/Hanse%20311-Bearings_tiller.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://jefa.com/ftp/old_boat_spare_parts/Hanse/Hanse_311/Hanse%20311-Bearings_tiller.pdf

In my old boat (Hanse 311) the lower bearing house was corroded and made a lot of trouble.

I ended up replacing both rudder bearings and the rudder with brand new 130mm fiberglass tube.

And a new rudder...

The lower bearing house was glassed to the hull so it will be a big deal to replace. Therefore I went for total upgrade because I had a polish rudder that was no good.

https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2909&KW=x%2D362&PID=45530&title=tillersteering-is-it-hard#45530" rel="nofollow - https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2909&KW=x%2D362&PID=45530&title=tillersteering-is-it-hard#45530

Kind regards

H8JER

Dave

When I had a new Jefa rudder fitted by the yard (my Polish one delaminated when I grounded in the Murray Firth) I think that they just tapped the roller caged bearing out of the bottom using a length of bar, which they inserted from inside the locker down the rudder tube.  I did not see the new one go in but the total time from removing the old to inserting the new took them less than 3/4 hour (I went for a coffee & the rudder was back in when I came back) I had already fitted the top bearing myself & the only hassle was fitting the flexible gland at the top of the short GRP stub as it had been purpose made from some "bouncy castle" material & had been made a bit too tight.--Note, that it has lasted better than the original material fitted by Hanse. So if this needs replacing it is worth considering.

I purchased new bearings complete, but I seem to recall that one could have bought new rollers & inserted them into the existing cage. It may be worth an inquiry to Jefa.

If a 301 is anything like a 311 it will be easy enough.

I will I think wait for the winter to drop of my rudder, and have a look.. 

In the second half of 2014, I paid a well known Scottish boat yard called Silvers, to replace both top and bottom bearings, they said they did, so the boat was put into the water and I sailed of, i then realise that infact the top bearing had not been replaced.. and went back.. they were somewhat angry with me and it was almost as if I did not know what I was talking about.. when they say it they reluctantly agreed that it had not been changed.. When I queried about the bottom one, they were were affronted and assured me that it had.. so as I was short of time after they had made the new top bearing and fitted it... ( it was stiff and hard to turn, to which they told me it would wear in).  I left.. the top bearing did not wear in, and never eased up.. I was later told it was not the right material.. but again was unsure of the advice given.. so last year I made out of a material I discussed with a SA company, a top rudder bearing.. and it is top notch. But I now realise that in fact the bottom bearing needs replacing..So now after just over 4 years, whether the bottom bearing was changed.. but hey how.. I will not be going back to that years again. 

Surprised tho to hear that the bottom bearing is glassed in and not just a tight push ( Bang in ) fit.. 

This puts a different twist in the job.. as I’m loathed to trust another company to do it right.. 

Thanks tho for your input.

Dave

On reflection, Although i purchased a complete bearing, I seem to recall that the yard found that the existing outer casing was ok. so just changed the rollers. This is the part that they taped out with a drift. That is why it was so quick.

Then they were able to put in a pair of rings - top & bottom- to hold the rollers in place.

It all worked brilliantly when done. The insurance Co paid for the rudder & I paid for the bearings as I felt it prudent whilst the rudder was out. So my bearing casing was not shot & that is why I got away with just having new rollers in the bottom. I renewed the top one complete.

I seem to recall, either on this forum or another one, that an owner said that his 301 has a delrin bush in the bottom bearing, not rollers

Dave

Whatever you do, do not use nylon as it swells in water I am not totally sure but I think that the same goes for oil filled nylon derivatives such as Oilon (I usually turn it for bearings & small jobs for sailing club members) as being nylon based it is liable to swell & jam the shaft. (is your top bearing green by any chance as that is  the colour it comes in?). You may consider Delrin

May i suggest that you google :-

https://www.directplastics.co.uk/delrin-rod" rel="nofollow - https://www.directplastics.co.uk/delrin-rod

They have a good website which gives info about the performance of each type of plastic. You can buy the rod & have it turned locally which would be the most economical way to go. Having the equipment I would probably have a go at making my own!! I have never turned Delrin, but Direct's website gives info on this.

However a chat to Jefa might enable you to convert to rollers which would be far better but you will need to glass in the outer case first.

it is working great.. 

I’m just looking for details and a diagram with external size of the bottom bearing, plus how to remove it.. 

a photo of my top bearing..

1) When boat is hauled, flush the bearing with fresh water

2) During the season, frequently pour fresh water with detergent into the rudder tube in the aft compartment. This is especially important during the weeks when new barnacles are born. Here in Sweden I believe it's beginning of August.

Replaced the roller bearings on my Hanse 311 years ago. In the link you’ll find ‘fotoalbum’ with more pictures than in the article. https://www.uisge-beatha.eu/2009/02/Winteronderhoud" rel="nofollow - https://www.uisge-beatha.eu/2009/02/Winteronderhoud

AlanL wrote: I will look to get the bearing replaced with a Delrin one - hopefully once the lockdown is over and I can go sailing again!  I miss sailing

Contrary to my earlier postin 2019

May i suggest that before you do, that you look at this site :-

https://www.directplastics.co.uk/%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.directplastics.co.uk/

They suggest that Delrin is not good for high wear applications.

I buy plastics from them & often make parts for our mooring holders. These include bushes for rudder pintles etc.Anchor rollers, plus bearings for our club's RIB safety boat trailer wheels. I have also made bearings for rollers in a belt sander running under load & 4000 RPM. In all cases I have used Oilon. I have not been told of any swelling although it is a form of nylon.( I originally thought that it might but no problems so far)

Of course if Jefra now do a roller set to fit, then that is the way to go. But in any event check if Delrin is what you really want first.

(I also make bearings (not from oilon though)for saildrive rope cutters, if anyone in the UK has a worn cutter that they can no longer get standard bearings for)

I did not go down the roller bearing route, I made myself a top rudder bearing out of vesconite plastic, with a built in dry lubricant... I have access to a lathe on the farm and turned out my top bearing... 

I will be doing the same with the bottom bearing when my 301 comes out of the water.. after the lockdown.

I bought a blank tube from vesconite in South Africa and after the top one it should be enough to do the bottom one..

Your right nylon does swell, as does all plastics but vesconite plastic bearing tube swells something like, from the top of my head something like 0.0045 of mm over 45mm diameter..

It is an easy material to cut down on a lathe..

Please can you confirm you are talking about a 301, and is it a bottom bearing.. if so can you photograph it and measure it’s length and perhaps do a drawing with measurements just so I can see what it looks like.. also how you removed it..

Thank you..

This material is used for rudder bearing gor large tankers, and container ships..

https://www.vesconite.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.vesconite.com/

Yes it is a 301 and bottom bearing but unfortunately I can't help you with photos and drawings as in the end we did not take the bearing out, but after removing the rudder, and while the boat was held in lifting straps prior to launching, we sanded the inside of the bearing very gently in place with fine grit on a cylindrical sanding attachment for a drill.  We did very little sanding and it was still a tight fit on refitting but once the rudder was back in place the difference was major with it back to fingertip smooth control rather than needing both hands and much muscle to move it!  It took us about 30 mins to do and the plan was this would be a temporary fix so I could go racing the next weekend (no chance of that with the lockdown!) and I would get a new bearing sometime later in the year.  Though based on the results of sailing that day I wonder if it will be needed as the rudder seems both smooth and responsive.  Once we get back to sailing I will see how it goes but suspect it will be next winter before I do anything now but I will certainly share an update if we do make a change.

Top and bottom bearings. I have a drawing somewhere of the sizes. I will dig it out and post as soon as I find it. 

Phil 

Hi Holby. This is Perry 'Bloto' 301 met in Stranraer 2017

A bit of experience ? I have made plain bearings for rudder on my race quarter tonner back in 1987. I used Delrin [poly acetal], the rudder shaft was Monel 1.5" dia. Sailed hard for 25 yrs. no problems. And have made similar for a  friends Fulmar.

When I bought my 301 in 2016 rudder was semi seized. Sailed it for few months it only got worse. Dropped the rudder our while overnight in slings of travel hoist. Bashed out bottom bearing with hardwood drift and big hammer. The bearing was good, cleaned inside with flap wheel on drill, filed outside diameter to provide good surface for adhesive. Cleaned shaft with emery cloth mostly dirt and product of corrosion, but then the bearing fitted smoothly with about .2mm clearance.

Pushed bearing back in with lots of Sikaflex 291. Fitted rudder and hung it from the top fitting. Top fitting I added some PTFE pads that take the weight of rudder [which isnt much due buoyancy] Cured adhesive overnight, re-launched next day 12:00am.

Been used hard for last 3 yrs and all perfect. The original fault was combination of the original fit too tight, rubbing of the oxide film off shaft, making it tight then bearing turned in hull and the adhesive broke down and squewed the bearing. By the way to drop rudder it was so tight I had trouble forcing it down.

The biggest problem removing rudder is getting top bolt out of rudder shaft. This took me a day and I had to make new top fitting.

Thoughts on material:-

Delrin works and bonds well. You dont need self lubricating materials as this is neither high load or high rotation speed, and water is the lubricant. Self lubricating negative is it doesnt adhesive bond as well.

Old style boatyards often made the bearings tight fit so lost clearance when they hammered in bearing. I know several people who have been told it will wear in?. No it doesnt, a tight rudder is worse than a tiny bit of a rattle.

Modern adhesives so good dont you never need to 'press fit' so on the 60mm aluminium jefra shaft allow generous clearance say .1-.2mm and float the bearing on sika. a little clearance it never notices when sailing, but yes sitting on mooring waggling the rudder you think it loose.

Regards Perry

First, the point about getting the top bolt out.  As the boat is out of the water all the weight of the rudder was on the bolt which fits through a slot in the side of the rudder shaft.  Once we figured out that we had to take the weight off the bolt (someone below holding the rudder up) then it was a lot easier!  We ended up drilling out the end with the captive nut then bashing it out with a hammer and punch while taking the weight off and it came out fairly ok.  Fortunately the fitting was not damaged.  I got new bolts from Bolt World on the internet.

Second, getting the rudder out when seized was a lot of work and needed 2 of us pulling and twisting to get it to move so if it is tight you may need help.  It was also surprisingly heavy and really needed 2 of us to manhandle it but we have a stainless shaft so probably heavier than aluminium.

I must admit I don't like the idea of the rudder being loose or rattling at all so I'm happy with a snug fitting which still feels pretty smooth to me though if there is any further expansion I suppose it will start to seize again over time.  I also have two, I'm guessing PTFE, pads at the top bearing which are what the rudder hangs on, and seem to work well.

Thanks, Alan.

Yes I remember now I was getting rudder out on my own, everyone in yard gone home,  I had been working all day [knackered]  and I had to work rudder back and forth, it was getting beyond my strength so I got a pole[spinnaker I think] and lashed it to rudder blade, with this leverage and the weight of rudder I worked up a sweat but it dropped down onto a pad on a trestle. Yes its heavy but one man lift when you have to.

I'm suggesting that the tiny rattle you get from .1-.2 mm or 8 thou in old money you only feel when wobbling the tiller when static as soon as you sail and the rudder works in the flow you dont feel it. A stiff rudder is just awful, you feel it all the time you sail.

If yours is the same as mine you may not have to get new. The one I made for my mates Fulmar is still going strong after 40 yrs.

But the messageis if you get another made dont makeit too tight dont ever think it will wear in.

Good Luck

Perry

Perry, the material I have is left over from when I did the top bearing.. it’s been designed specially for rudder bearing, so I’m hoping that the inbuilt dry lubricant won’t cause a problem.. the swelling with water absorption is less than the Delrin. 

The material is very easy to machine on my lathe, so once I have dropped the rudder off..

I presume I then use the wood to knock out the bearing from inside the stern locker? 

Then I can use it as a copy and measure the rudder shaft to get the inside tube diameter..

Cheers... I am just waiting in starting blocks waiting to be allowed over the border into Scotland.

😂😂😂

Dave

I would think the material you have will be OK.

However as you have time, I suggest just for peace of mind I would take the adhesive you intend to use [I used Sikaflex 291]  and make a test joint to the bearing material. If the inbuilt lubricant defeats the adhesive bonding, then think again on Delrin.

And my  repeat warning, the classic mistake is to not allow enough clearance!!.

Regards

Perry

Having slept on your bearing problem.

I suggest if your material is of sufficient diameter, I would turn the OD to a top had shape with a 4-5mm thick flange about 16mm bigger than the diameter of the hole in hull. Make the OD a push fit into the hull [not too tight or the ID will shrink and tighten the fit on rudder shaft].  Put 3 or so self tapping countersunk A4 SS screws thru the flange and into the hull,  not to penetrate the hull!. This way if the adhesive has poor bonding to the bearing the bearing is retained from rotation.

In my own case I had a significant clearance between hull and bearing, When I disassembled it I found the cause of my stiff rudder was the bearing had seized on rudder shaft, then rotated balling up the adhesive and canting over the bottom bearing. So if you have inherent mis-alignment and you go for the above approach you may need to re-position the top bearing?

I floated the bearing in and fitted the rudder to allow the bearing to align as the Sikaflex curred. I have had no further problems in 5 years sailing.

Further observation is that my previous David Thomas designed yachts used a full length rudder tube from top of deck to bottom of hull,  top and bottom bearings are in one tube, big plus if the rudder falls out the yacht doesnt sink, the need for a half length tube may be to allow for fitting a wheel steering or authelm bellcrank. The solution to put self aligning delrin roller bearings for yachts under 40ft seems expensive solution to a problem. Bending of the 63mm solid Aluminium rudder stock unlikely to be the need for self aligning bearings?

A few days on the lathe in the barn, and I will have a new bearing. I will go with the same OD so it will have the same 🤞 fit as the old one.. and with adhesive allowed to dry before rudder is re fitted it should not rotate and also due to the strength and hardness of Vesconite, there will be little chance of the ID being compromised...  

Hi Holby looks good. Most of my play came from wear on the Aluminium shaft.  my old Delrin bearing was only about .2mm clearance on the unworn shaft, about .5-.7mm on the worn area.  If yours Shaft is good that says to me that your choosen Vesconite material is better than my Delrin i.e. it doesnt preferentialy wear the shaft.

I had to make my replacement 120mm long to bear on the unworn shaft above the old worn area.

Anyway Bloto is all fixed and good setup with .15mm clearance.

Regards

Many thanks for your advice, much appreciated 👍👍👍

Dave

Now I will start on the lathe this weekend..

Hi Holby. Ive sold Bloto and on Friday picking up a 2007 315a

How is your bearing going?

Bottom bearing is in and working very well...I did take your suggestion and extended the height of the bearing and I think this helped a lot... I will post a photo of the finished bearing when I am near my pc👍👍

Great, I  hope my experience has helped a bit. I have 4* 300mm lengths of thin walled Hygenic quality thin walled tubes. I was going to fit to the shaft to get round the wearproblem, but in the end went for the overlenth approach.

Today we took charge of our new [2007] Hanse 315. motored back from Hamble as the sail controls not fitted correctly by yard, wind gusting a bit. Tomorrow hope to try sailing?

Owe you a beer.. 😂😂

I am in the process of removing Bluenote's rudder as I have a little play in the bottom bearing and wanted to get some check on any potential pitting of the rudder shaft. 

I will for sure be using copious amounts of aluminium based grease when I replace the tiller pivot clamp bolt. What a terrible combination of different metals.

I have to dig a 1.025 m pit to drop the rudder into.

This isn't going to be easy as Bluenote is laid up on a low cradle on a quayside that was used for processing and exporting most of the Welsh roof slate to European cities!

I would very much appreciate any dimensioned drawing of the bottom and top bearing bushes. 

I may consider a slightly longer stepped bottom bearing as I have noticed that after dropping it about 60mm the play has gone and in fact it has made it a lot harder to turn the rudder blade. 

I have left it with some washing up liquid squirted into the top of the rudder tube hoping it will make its way down the shaft and easier to twist and remove the rudder.

Other planned maintenance is waiting for replacement through hulls and valves. Interestingly all my original through hulls and seacocks were in near perfect condition. I am replacing with tru design. 

During the wait all of the ancient antifouling is being removed and I have been promised some 4 year hempel AF as used on the river Mersey dock tugs!

uploads/5043/Sketch_of_Long_rudder_bearing_Hanse_301_2020-12-30_18-19-58.pdf" rel="nofollow - uploads/5043/Sketch_of_Long_rudder_bearing_Hanse_301_2020-12-30_18-19-58.pdf Hi Holby,

I know digging a hole is cheap option, because both times Ive dropped a rudder I had to cough up to have a lift, first time they did me as last lift of day and left me in travel hoist overnight and then launched me next morning. Cheap but I was on my own working late in night to drop bearing clean out sikoflex and put in new bearing and lift rudder into a boat that was moving in the slings. Second time the dreaded health and safety regs was the excuse to refuse to leave me in hoist and I had to pay for two lifts. So get digging!.

I attach a drawing of my bearing which according to the guy who bought Bloto is working fine.

However important to note if I did it again I might go as tight as a clearance of 0.1-0.15mm, on the un-worn diameter area of rudder shaft.

Also note I made the bearing over length at 129 mm bearing length, It worried me that it might bind, but it was fine, but the inside diameter of the rudder tube was not very round/parallel so I made the OD of my Delrin a very loose fit, stepped to suit the hole/tube yours may differ. so that I could float in the bearing on Sika-flex. That worked fine. If you make the OD tight in the rudder tube you might have stiff rudder due to any misalignment.

So float it in on Sika-flex, then couple up the top bearing and let the Sika cure with rudder hanging in it natual position.

Good luck, the digging might be the most difficult part of job.

Perry

Great: You reminded of that night in boat yard, I had to use rope lashing [tighten with spanish windlass] to attach a 6ft long timber to the rudder, then worked up a hell of a sweat moving rudder back and forth hanging all my weight on rudder as it slowly came free. I was worried I might split the rudder but I had no sign of damage.

I think the short bearing length due to penny pincing and design ignorance [thinking that longer bearing would give more friction], "it dont work like that boys"?

Perry

I eventually had to use a 3m long scaffold pole as a pile driver onto the top edge of the bush and through the hole left by removing the top bush assembly.

It took me over an hour to eventually get the bush out.

No sign of any wear on the bush. It was fastened into the rudder tube with a very very strong adhesive. 

I had to brace the bottom of the boat hull externally locally to the rudder tube in order to concentrate the impact action. There is no way I could have removed that bush with the boat just in a crane slings.

Your right I'm sorry I failed to explain fully my methods:-

1]  on my first removal in 2016 the bearing was nearly siezed on shaft and the sikaflex type adhesive was already damaged, after the work turning the rudder back and forth with a long timber, and removing rudder shaft I was able to hammer our the bearing with timber down from top with a modest builders lump hammer. It was heavy going but it wasnt at a level to damage hull or bearing, but the sikaflex was partialy sheared.

2]  my second bearing removal was harder, I knew would be tough as I had previously made a serious job of bonding in the bearing with sika 291. I had a 19mm plywood with 100mm hole made to spread load on outside of hull, a big diameter tube 4" ID 4" long to allow the bearing to slide out, a  length of 18mm screw studding, and an aluminium disk about 12mm thick turned to fit down inside the rudder tube and bear on the inside end of bottom bearing. The 10" long socket set lever winding down the nut had to be pulled with a 2 ft tube extension. And the sikaflex continued serious resistance even when over 1/2" extension under load.