Forestay removal-updated 4
Printed From: myHanse.com
Category: Hints & Tips
Forum Name: 461 / 470
Forum Description: 461 / 470 Hints and Tips
URL: https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12848
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 03:40
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Forestay removal-updated 4
Posted By: JonB
Subject: Forestay removal-updated 4
Date Posted: 29 June 2021 at 13:05
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Hi, The Facnor LX200 furler has developed a problem, in that it sticks and jams until the furling line is cranked up bit like a cam going round hitting something. I've spoken with the dealer here in the south of the UK who's very helpful and of course the stainless steel screws have long bonded to the aluminium foil, so I've bought a new foil and telescopic length at the bottom as no doubt the old will have to be cut off to remove it to enable me to see inside the drum to find the fault, suspect that the bearing has broken due to the jib becoming unfurled in heavy winds, but wont know till inspected. The base fitting is a large bolt through the forestay and at the top is a split pin holding another pin, but how to ease the tension to enable pins/bolts to be removed? I've eased the back stay and run a halyard down to the bow fitting plus the baby stay I fitted a couple of years ago is tensioned up to provide additional support to the mast, however the forestay still seems tight. I'd like to be able to undo the bolt and withdraw it without load being placed on it. Anyone removed the forestay?
------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Replies:
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 01 July 2021 at 22:50
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No takers so an updated for you. I've removed the back stay completely and replaced temporarily with two running back stays as replacements in the form of the main halyard and the toping lift, to the rear cleats. I eased the stays at the chain plates so they were hand lose and wobbled like mad, worrying when boats go past but ok. I've also the inner forestay I fitted a few years ago to support the mast, bow side, plus the code 0 halyard and once everything was relaxed, vang and main sheet, I could at last pull the forestay down 10-15mm (1/2") and the bolt slid out as hoped. With the jib halyard wound tight to take the weight of the furling foil I climbed the mast (although I did retighten the stays by hand first) to remove the split and gudgeon pins.  This as you imagine still carried some weight and so the pin didn't come out without a fight and being this high up I didn't want to watch the splash beneath as my efforts exceeded the force required to remove it. I retained the pin and the forestay dropped about 50-60mm as the weight was taken up with the halyard. Back on the deck, I set up a series of lines so that the drum could be pulled forward on to the pontoon at the side and the top could be drawn away from the rigging, slowly I lowered the jib halyard and moved the drum along the pontoon, then it was time to draw the top of the forestay away from the rigging as well as move the drum forward. Eventually the top cleared the rigging and I was able to lower it to the pontoon.  The red lines are the running backstays, the blue is the inner forestay I fitted for the J3. Now I've to cut through the aluminium as the bolts/screws are corroded together and send the drum back to the main dealer. The foil spins with ease around the forestay so it's the maintenance free bearings that have the issue. Hopefully I'll be told what that issue is, grease gone hard preventing the stainless steel bearings from rotating, or another failure maybe the casing but I don't have any signs of staining. With luck Facnor, will soon send me a replacement drum (once I've paid) as is their scheme and I can hoist it all back up into place. My next posting ought to be about tuning the standing rigging and trimming at sea! One thing at a time folks. ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: H8jer
Date Posted: 02 July 2021 at 06:02
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Hi Jonb You have displayed bravery like a real Norse King... Scary job. ------------- Hanse 370#487 30HP 3-cabin |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 05 July 2021 at 11:27
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When two different metals are in close contact it's known that galvanic corrosion will occur, so you have to ask why manufacturers choose to do so. With the no maintenance furling system being just that, when things do go wrong it takes a lot more effort to sort it out. A little bit of forethought could have gone into it so that the end user - you and me, stand a chance if we do need to separate the sections for any reason. The photo below is the lower foil and the telescopic section, with the bottom bolt sheared and the drill not touching the Stainless steel screwheads an issue becomes a problem. Luckily I thought this might be the case and ordered two new sections.  Two Screws and an Allen bolt whose threads refused to budge The next task was to remove the furler from the foil, knowing that the bottom bolt, that sticks proud was already seized the only option was to cut the telescopic section and withdraw the forestay. This is when I discovered that there is a plastic 'bearing' insert at the bottom of the section too, this had to be drilled out to enable the removal of the forestay. Finally off, I had to separate to get to the acrylic bush under the lower telescopic section Finally, it was a matter of cutting out the remaining foil section left attached to the insert and removing the two screws again. This time I just hack sawed them off and ground down the remaining upstands of the screws, to be flush. I'll not bother trying to drill these out, as the shape of the foil and its' inserts are such that a dab of two pack 'glue' to hold will take the rotational forces especially when the jib is also adding its binding action as it get wrapped.  This was my array of temporary (and permanent) forestays, the stay sail (J3); the jib halyard split to both cleats and the code 0/gennaker halyard at the bow fitting. ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: richarddaltry
Date Posted: 06 July 2021 at 07:43
Hi Jon, very impressed you have managed this yourself. I have had to get our furler foil repaired after somehow damaging the top with a halyard wrap. Initially suspected the top swivel of the furler but suspect user error is the main cause. I went to a good local rigger and they refused to drop forestay as they didn't feel comfortable supporting the mast with a halyard. To be fair I don't have an inner forestay so could only have run one halyard. So at the moment the whole rig is off to get it sorted.  I have a question you or someone may be able to help with. Does the 470 also have the sparcraft mast that the 461 has? I'm trying to get hold of the factory specified forestay length for the 461 and wondered if your mast is the same if you have the forestay length? Our rig was raked aft quite a way and so we're trying to work out if that was right or not. She has been sailing with a nice balance so suspect fine but keen to see if others are as raked. Many thanks, Rich.
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Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 06 July 2021 at 09:02
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Hi Rich, As a Civil Engineer we are trained to think logically and it can be a pain, I'm sure if I had a different vocation I would not have attempted it. It was a matter of working through who, what & where the forces are and likely to be and how I could compensate for them, I think it was Einstein who said for every action there's a reaction, I also had a pain in the *rse lecturer at college many moons ago who drilled it in! Yes, ours is a Sparcraft too and a fractional rig, I have a copy of their rigging manual, which hands up I didn't read from cover to cover but it was useful to refer to, especially having removed the backstay and I still couldn't withdraw the bolt as it had tension from the forestay on it. Again the 470 doesn't have an inner forestay either, I fitted that myself too and strengthened the forward baulk head to spread the loads, see an early 'winter maintenance plus' article. As for the forestay length, that is my next job whilst I wait for the replacement Facnor furlers, I've decided to replace both top and bottom, whilst I've the rig down, makes sense. So as soon as I've measured it from centre of hole to hole of the end fittings, I'll post the numbers. I shall read the manual on trimming at sea as you always find, or we do, that sailing on one tack seems better than the other, but I might wait until I'm clear of the Solent and its effects on winds. It could be that the weight of the galley, fridge, cooker etc is lighter than the non-central batteries and electrical equipment on the port-side. I hope Hanse would've considered this in their design.
------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: richarddaltry
Date Posted: 06 July 2021 at 18:29
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Hi Jon, It would be very helpful to see the length you have and compare with what we have. I just had a conversation with Phil at Inspiration and he checked the IMS certs for a 461 and 470 and most of the values were exactly the same suggesting there is a good chance it's an identical rig. He is also asking the factory riggers for a forestay length. Hopefully they have it in the records from back in 2006 (for the 461). I have also noticed the feeling of one tack being better than the other. My suspicions is it's probably the wind instrument being slightly off or maybe the log impeller reading slightly differently on each tack but as you point out, could well be some sort of asymmetry in the rig setup. I also spoke to Adrian, the Facnor dealer today and it's worth noting he said the top swivel design has been improved a fair bit in the last 3-4 years, especially under load with some new bearing internals in the last year or two. I have already received a new one from him and it feels the same as the old one but suspect it is worth the change for peace of mind. Thanks. |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 06 July 2021 at 19:01
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Adrian said the same to me, but I finding difficult to twist without quite a bit of force! I'm not sure when I'll next get to the boat to measure the forestay, I'm hoping Thursday, if I manage to complete some contract drawings ready for issue Monday ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 08 July 2021 at 19:13
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Hi Richard, The forestay length from centre of hole in the end fitting to the same the other end is 20.4m, that is for our 2007 470e It's upper end is back up and just waiting for the new furler to be shipped from France, fingers crossed they all don't disappear on their summer break before sending it  .------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: richarddaltry
Date Posted: 27 July 2021 at 08:31
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Hi Jon, many thanks. So it turned out my forestay was 60mm too long explaining the rig being raked aft so far. Phil at Inspiration Marine managed to get the original spec from the factory riggers. 20.48m eye to eye. Close to your measurement but maybe the 470 and 461 are very slightly different rigs. I should have the rig back on later this week. It has been way too long in the middle of the season! Hope you have got your furler and forestay back on?
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Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 28 July 2021 at 08:56
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Hi Richard, 80mm is not possible to take up with the backstay tensioner! We've three racked back spreaders, I'll have a look at the 461 and see as location of top mount may be different too. I believe that my furler has been released, may be on the slow boat, but at least gone prior to the French going on holiday. So I'm hoping when I get back from Ireland (Eire) at the weekend, I can re-assemble and get sailing again and look for another window to take NK west for a few weeks.
------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 10 August 2021 at 19:47
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Good evening all, So the Fastnet left Cowes in blustery conditions and the later boats had wind against tide to contend with as they approached Hurst and the Needles. Is it just me or should the race committee think slightly more outside of the box, yes they moved the big boys from the back to the front, wise move in those conditions, but why not start earlier too and yes the tide would've been against them, but it was in any case unless you started later! Anyway I've finally received the package from the French via Euro Spars in Plymouth, Adrian being very helpful. The difference in the effort to twist the furlers by hand is a joke, all I can say is that if your finding it hard to furl in and may be use the winch it's time to change your gear.  I spotted after I fitted it that its 180 degrees out the tack swivel at the bottom with the brown ball bearings swivels in front not behind! Oh well backstay off and shrouds loosened once more! I have used a compound between the aluminium and the stainless steel bolts but I'm hoping not to have to replace it again!
------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: Alexmass
Date Posted: 22 October 2021 at 13:29
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Exactly, you need to make a good effort Adrian said the same to me, but I finding difficult to twist without quite a bit of force! This summer we were in Spain, in Valencia we had a rest. We rented a motor https://2yachts.com/brand/leopard" rel="nofollow - yacht and sailed on it to the Canary Islands. At first, the steering wheel did not obey well, but gradually everything worked out. I don’t know what the problem was, but our tour went without any problems.
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Posted By: richarddaltry
Date Posted: 28 January 2022 at 14:37
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Hi Jon, So after all my troubles last season at the top of the forestay I seem to be having a similar issue to your what you described with the furler drum itself. Basically it goes very stiff on for about a quarter of a turn, then easily round the next 3/4 and stiff again. Very annoying after having the rig out last year to sort the foil and forestay length. Furler seemed fine then  Starting to think about the fix and re-reading your post and getting depressed about having to replace the whole unit I did a bit of googling and found this thread on the Jeanneau forum; https://jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/8561/facnor-genoa-furler-servicing-overhaul" rel="nofollow - Facnor genoa furler servicing/overhaul | Jeanneau Owners Forum (proboards.com) I wondered if the LX200 has the same issue and fix. Did you ever hear from Adrian what might have been the cause of your issue? Thanks, Rich. |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 28 January 2022 at 22:01
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Hi Richard, It seems such a long time ago but everything is connected and I've had the rig tensioned and ready to go. What ever go means! I'm hoping to take NK across to Portugal this year so updated quite a few more bits including the radar, in case French fisherman opt to turn their AIS off! Hopefully you'll get some decent sailing ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 28 January 2022 at 22:05
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Hi Richard, I replaced the whole system which included removing the forestay as I needed to cut it in order to get to the system. Aluminium v's steel bolts, why do they do that? I'm hoping that the new system will last another 10 years ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: richarddaltry
Date Posted: 29 January 2022 at 15:48
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It seems like the odd poor material choice and poor galvanic isolation is a bit of a theme with some bits of the Facnor setup. Portugal sounds great! Will you visit the Spanish Rias on route? If I can squeeze it in between work needs I'm looking at trip to Fort William this year with some colleagues to try our hand at the sailing three peaks challenge and then West Country for summer hols with family on the way back.
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Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 29 January 2022 at 22:18
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As I understand it from Adrian, Facnor made the decision to produce low/no maintenance gear that would last. Sounds great and it is but the words 'would last' is looked into what does 'would last' mean, give a time frame ? Other systems aren't so robust and require attention much more frequently to wash out the salts, so some require after every trip or race, certainly not what a cruising person wants for sure. We will be stopping at Bayona, but other than that it's all Portugal, unless I push on to Gibraltar and Ceuta, old haunts I'd like to visit whilst that way. I've two friends that have entered the race for the past 5 years, so if you need any helpful advice ask away. ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: richarddaltry
Date Posted: 08 February 2022 at 09:12
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Well, I got to the bottom of my problem. A missing bushing at the bottom of the telescopic section/top of the furler drum. Quite a critical component! No idea how the riggers missed it, they must have somehow forgotten when the reassembled last year. However, very relieved my bearings seem fine and appears to be an easy job to fit a new bushing as it's split in two half's.. The drum was pulling off towards the furler line and binding on the forestay. Luckily the forestay has not been damaged. Yes, good point on Facnor approach, it is extremely hard to engineer something guaranteed to last in the marine environment at a sensible price. So my furler drum at 16 years old with basically no maintenance is pretty impressive. Let's hope it keeps going! ------------- Rich Hanse 461 #61 "Mako of Hamble" |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 08 February 2022 at 11:18
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Hi Rich, Always nice to find the cause, even better when it's not a costly fix. It may have been a simple case that it fell out when they brought it down, (if removed) and they didn't notice it so weren't expecting to put it back! That you'll never know! ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |