Copper based anti fouling-warranty problem
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Topic: Copper based anti fouling-warranty problem
Posted By: Towed
Subject: Copper based anti fouling-warranty problem
Date Posted: 29 May 2007 at 21:46
|
I just heard from the norwegian dealer that copper based anti-fouling
is not recommended on Hanse epoxy boats, and he claimed that vc17 (from
International) was one of the banned products. The hull warranty will
not be valied if a copper based anti-fouling has been used. This sounds strange. Has anyone heard this before, and can anyone confirm that there is an issue with epoxy boats and copperbased antifouling in general and vc17m in particular? |
Replies:
Posted By: Alain & Anne
Date Posted: 29 May 2007 at 22:23
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Hi Towed, Yes I did. Hanse dealer received advise about that. I had discussion regarding my 430 and it is very clear that copper based anti-fouling are banned. There are some threads about it in the the forum data base. Watch also for the Hanse 371 Megawatt story. Alain ------------- UHAMBO 430e#004 White hull-teck deck-Yanmar 55hp-long range cruising OCC Our blog: www.uhambo.fr |
Posted By: Junker
Date Posted: 30 May 2007 at 08:40
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Hi
I would think that this is VERY clear stated in the user manual for the boat?
If not the dealer have a very veak case!
But I gues it does't mention this, as this manuel is very limited.
If you compare it to i.e a manual for a cell phone that costs 100$, they have the first 10 pages of the manual with warnings and what you can not use the phone for!
|
Posted By: leemind
Date Posted: 31 May 2007 at 08:21
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Err, are you/they referring to the CopperBot / CopperCoat type products? i.e. a thin layer of epoxy applied to the hull and then copper granules blasted into it? Mine, like several others, was recommended by Hanse UK and done by them prior to launch - Are they now saying this is unsafe?? You have me worried... David 461#028 |
Posted By: Pea Soup Crew
Date Posted: 31 May 2007 at 19:44
|
Hi,
From memory, I think there was something in the Megawatt report re copper antifouling and the reactions with the rudder stocks (alloy). Peter ------------- Pea Soup Crew 342#395 |
Posted By: Brightside
Date Posted: 31 May 2007 at 20:24
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Hi.
Peter you are correct. Copper based antifouling and aluminium rudders do not mix. This will be a big problem. Regards Mike |
Posted By: hawkeye
Date Posted: 05 June 2007 at 11:48
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Hi Guys, Following was a reply received direct from Hanse when I queried this thru my dealer. The problem is only where there is aluminium such as the saildrive and the rudder stock. This reply should reassure anyone who was worried about their warranty. Cheers, John The rudder shaft and the complete saildrive must be free from copper base antifouling. That’s all. Best regards
Uwe
Hennicke
HanseYachts
AG blocked::mailto:uhennicke@hanseyachts.com - uhennicke@hanseyachts.com |
Posted By: colincooper
Date Posted: 05 June 2007 at 19:48
|
Here is a picture of my boat just before re-launching two months ago. Is this a problem? What does "no paint on rudderstock" mean? Is that bit of paint going to cause a problem? Arrhh.  ------------- Colin (owner of Hilde - a 370) |
What do I do now? Haul the boat out? Why the f... doesn't the manual say that. Or did I miss it?Posted By: hawkeye
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 06:21
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Hi Colin, Afraid you have to remove the copper based antifouling from the rudder stock. Best long term solution is to use aluminium compatible antifouling in a patch around the rudder stock in the same way as is done on and around the sail drive. If you had the antifouling done professionally, talk to the contractor. They should know better than to put copper product on aluminium, and may be prepared to help out with fixing the problem. Good luck. John |
Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 10:36
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This is truly concerning and I'll be following it up with Peter and the crew in the UK.
This is becoming a common theme lately. The factory is increasing destroying what was a great reputation. The ironic thing for me is that my 470 was factory coated in copper coat. While this provides me with a level of confidence that i would be able to take them to the cleaners if a claim was necessary, I'm loosing confidence that the fouling was correctly applied by the factory due to their recent lack of attention to detail. Which as we all know is no help while in heavy seas or crossing an ocean.
Funny when i first joined this forum when looking to buy a Hanse there was a rogue member crowing about Bavaria's saying Hanses were below average. Now i don't and will never crow about Bavaria's (bless their plastic hulls!!
 ) but perhaps he knew something about the direction of the Hanse business. Please someone tell me I'm wrong.Can we ask for a definitive comment from the factory on this topic, if not god help them, this site will cease to be a sales tool  ------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Scorpio
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 13:00
Hanse UK have issued clear guidance on this issue in their latest newsletter http://www.hanseyachts.co.uk/readnews.asp?article=55 - here - I quote:
- With aluminium rudder stocks and Saildrives it is essential to remember that they should not be painted with copper based antifoulings. Use a non-copper antifouling designed for stern drives, saildrives and aluminium . such as International Trilux on these parts. Be careful not to get your traditional copper based antifouling onto the rudder stock, and use Trilux over the top of the rudder blade and for at least two inches around the rudder tube. The concern was originally raised as a result of the Irish Marine Casualty investigation into the sinking of Megawat - you can access the full report http://www.mcib.ie/reports/?thisID=1907 - here . The findings are in section 5.3.8 on page 13 and the resulting recommendations are in sections 6.1.3 and 6.2 on page 15. Both have been fulfilled. The resulting Irish Marine Notice is http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=8835&lang=ENG&loc=2138 - here . It should be noted that the pitting of the rudder stock on Megawat caused by the Awlgrip did not contribute to her sinking.
On Scorpio I specified http://www.seajetpaint.com/product/1/431/onderwatercoatings.html#seajet-034-emperor - Seajet Emperor 034 antifouling following good experience of it on my previous boat and also good results it and Seajet Shogun 033 had received in various magazine reviews. Emperor 034 is compatible with aluminium. I thoroughly recommend it and have no connection with Seajet other than as a satisfied customer.
If I had copper based anti-fouling on Scorpio I would remove it completely in the areas suggested by Hanse UK the next time the boat is being antifouled and use a copper compatible antifouling in the future.
Ed ------------- Ed Essery Scorpio GBR 9824T Hanse 342#465 - Solent Based |
Posted By: colincooper
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 15:15
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Thanks for this. My only question now is whether to haul the boat now and redo that bit of antifoul - or wait until next haulout? I guess I'll have to go to Hanse for that one. ------------- Colin (owner of Hilde - a 370) |
Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 15:35
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Hi All,
Now i was very very concerned about this so i got straight on the phone to Peter and I'm happy to say he has put my mind at ease.
Firstly the no copper coat on Epoxy is complete rubbish. He'll go on record for that and that is good enough for me. Now on the copper coat near rudder stocks and sail drives, a few points to consider.
Note the Megawatt incident report indeed noted some pitting and that copper coat "could" be responsible, therefore it is advisable to heed the warning but consider this.
How many boats are there new and old that have aluminum stocks and sail drives? 1000's.
How many of these have copper coat? again 1000's.
So while this report cited a hanse losing a rudder (due to a poorly installed autodrive by a 3rd party) and "some" pitting that "could" have been contributed to by copper coat, don't be overly keen to lose sleep over it. This is a situation/phenomena that nearly every production boat has to deal with and it is NOT specific to Hanses.
Thank fully (at least for those based in the UK) we have a dealer that appears to be all over the facts. I would go hauling out and grinding back you hull just yet. GHOST is due out at the end of this year at which time I'll report more, but for now I'm comfortable in the knowledge that my dealer was aware of these facts and commissioned my boat accordingly...I hope!!
 B ------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Alex Faber
Date Posted: 07 June 2007 at 11:44
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A far as I know, on every tin of copper based anti-fouling you can read that it should not be used on aluminium. ------------- s/y eMotion (H430e #24) |
Posted By: colincooper
Date Posted: 07 June 2007 at 13:13
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OK - and now it is mentioned it is obvious ....
My painting was done by the yard. I did specify non-copper paint for the saildrive. However, if you look at the pic, it may not be all that obvious that that little bit of shaft showing is aluminium - especially if covered in old anti-foul. It is something we missed. That was our fault. I feel silly now.
It should however, have been in the manual. And from the original painting I'm pretty sure the Hanse factory (who did the first years painting) didn't use anything different for the paint around the rudder. In fact they didn't even antifoul the saildrive at all!!! I now see the warning in the latest UK Hanse newsletter - but that was the first to be only published online - and so I hadn't seen it before. IMHO an important safety point like that should have been communicated better. They go so far as to put a sticker by the main hatch pointing out that you might like to use it as a fire exit. This is far less obvious
But then maybe I'm just annoyed with myself for missing it too.
Never mind. From what I've seen it will be OK for this year. I will strip and repaint differently next year. I hope it doesn't drop off this year.... ------------- Colin (owner of Hilde - a 370) |
Posted By: colincooper
Date Posted: 07 June 2007 at 14:39
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PS - Hanse have confirmed it will be OK for now - and to repaint differently next haulout. ------------- Colin (owner of Hilde - a 370) |
Posted By: marcust
Date Posted: 08 June 2007 at 08:52
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I have always left rudder stock unpainted and used trilux on the saildrive. Read the guidance on the antifouling tin and use common sense. Every sailor should know not to mix incompatible metals. Next people will be saying it is Hanse's responsibility to provide us with forecasts and tell us when we should and should not go to sea.
For what it's worth Hanse UK recommended trilux for saildrive to me some years back. ------------- Marcus Tettmar http://www.mjtnet.com/" rel="nofollow - Macro Recorder & Windows Automation Tools. Automate your business so YOU can go sailing. We'll show you how. |
Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 08 June 2007 at 09:20
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Hi Marcus,
All very valid points and i agree. But you can understand ones concern when reports surface that a Hanse dealer elsewhere in the world is saying that the factory is advising against copper coat on Epoxy. Now this has since been shouted down and I'm now comfortable that this is not the case.
Secondly the points on the rudder stock again the factory applied this for me (so i never had the privilege of reading the tin) and therefore you must ask the question for peace of mind and safety. These vessels are after all all of our prides of joy and importantly something we rely on to keep us as safe as possible.
I think 99% of people have learned some interesting points for the future via this string
Round of applause for Hanse UK though
 , they have again picked up the ball and provided clear and decisive information. Given they commissioned my boat i have confidence that all the products you mention have been used in the appropriate places!Brad ------------- GHOST - Hanse 470e - 058 http://www.sailblogs.com/member/ghost/ |
Posted By: Pea Soup Crew
Date Posted: 08 June 2007 at 21:54
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Hi,
Just to be sure I checked with my antifoul manufacturer (Blakes) and they advised that any copper based antifoul should be 1-2 inches (25-50mm) from any alloy fitting. They also confirmed that Blakes Mili-drive (spray can antifoul for saildrives etc) is suitable protection in this area. Peter ------------- Pea Soup Crew 342#395 |