steering system changes
Printed From: myHanse.com
Category: Hints & Tips
Forum Name: 461 / 470
Forum Description: 461 / 470 Hints and Tips
URL: https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=13914
Printed Date: 26 March 2026 at 23:45
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: steering system changes
Posted By: psousa
Subject: steering system changes
Date Posted: 15 March 2023 at 18:18
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Hi! Anyone here did any changes to the original steering system of the Hanse 470e? Actually mine is full dependent on one single roller chain + steel cable terminals. If this linking part breaks for some reason (for instance orcas/killing wales as they are ramming rudders since 2020, here on portuguese coast), we completely loose steering, including the autopilot which is actually a 12v Jefa sprocket drive unit therefore, also depending of this roller chain/steel cable link. I was thinking on: 1. to have a spare link (roller chain + steel cable); currently waiting for material recommendations from Jefa to buy it according to the plan I have for 470, also from Jeffa); 2. change to a >=20 tons hydraulic ram/linear drive unit, directly connected to the quadrant or to the ruder stock (this way we can still use autopilot if we loose the wheels link); What are your opinions about?
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Replies:
Posted By: Wild
Date Posted: 16 March 2023 at 19:20
If you have a killer whale attack on your rudder and it’s broken you have nothing on a spare or double steering system  Sorry ------------- Wild and Wet Belgium 545e#268 |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 16 March 2023 at 21:39
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Also there is a circular plate that you open with a winch handle and the L bar is inserted so that you have a hand steering tiller. But agree with the Admiral, if they've bitten your rudder off there's nothing to turn and you'll need to set up a drogue system in order to steer, or play with the sail configuration, more akin to dinghy's than heavy yachts. ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: Ratbasher
Date Posted: 17 March 2023 at 08:20
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Rather than thinking about specific items, I'd suggest first considering what effect you want to achieve; what's the real issue to which you're proposing a solution? The mission-critical effect we're considering here is maintaining directional control of a boat. Steering can fail either because of an issue in the linkages or because of damage/loss of the rudder. It's a seamanlike precaution to plan for and test out alternatives for steering gear failures and the primary back-up is to use the autopilot which drives the steering quadrant directly (at least on the 400). Next up is the emergency tiller - but I'll bet most owners have never actually tried to use this at sea; the basic one provided by Hanse in mine is virtually unusable without modification. Then come the alternatives that Jon mentions above: trim the sails and/or stream a drogue; I'd argue that every vessel that goes offshore that wants to be taken seriously should carry a drogue with the crew practiced in its many uses. However, the ultimate in redundancy is to be able to deploy a usable emergency rudder - either something created as a precaution beforehand or my own particular preference, Hydrovane self-steering although this may not be perfect in every instance. Have a look at: https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/know-how-rigging-emergency-rudders" rel="nofollow - Know-How: Rigging Emergency Rudders - Sail Magazine Sorry that that's a long way to answer to address your question. However, as for the point about attacks, I wonder if there's a business opportunity here for someone to create anti-fouling paint that tastes truly horrible to Orcas?!? ------------- H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard' Gosport, UK |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 17 March 2023 at 21:14
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Or may be we should see it from their point of view and not over fist their waters so that they have food to eat and not see net loads being dragged up into boats whilst they go hungry. After all, sharks mistake surfers for seals, so Orca's mistake yachts as a fishing vessels, and the deployment of 'pingers', only fuels their anxiety. The heads, have doors to the cupboards under the sink. Screw and glue this to a broom handle and or a spinnaker pole and you have yourself a rudder. You need to think outside of the box and everything on board should have more than one purpose, otherwise its taking up valuable space. ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: Ratbasher
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 07:01
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Quite agree about seeing it from an Orca's perspective and the possible causes of the attacks; interesting to see (or so I understand) that such attacks have been restricted to Iberian fishing grounds. Also agree about multiple uses for kit onboard, but a key point I was making is that the issue should be properly thought-through with options devised and practised before they're needed. My missus might have a few things to say about me b@st@rdising her cupboard doors on a nice day going across the channel! ------------- H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard' Gosport, UK |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 08:20
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Needs must! Although under the beds are access panels to the storage areas beneath. What I was trying to demonstrate is that as sailors, whose survival in such conditions, requires some quick thinking, also needs to think outside the box. ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: psousa
Date Posted: 01 April 2023 at 15:55
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No, orcas don’t ‘bite’ rudders. They ram them. Many of them remains usable (even slightly bent or shorter) but if the link breaks on current 470e setup, it become useless. There are also some broken quadrants. I’m from lisbon and we handle this much before it became public and build up the current buzz around. Anyways there are many other possibilities of impact on a rudder which may cause the link to break or other internal setup damage but keeps it fully or partially usable. This is the damage window I’m focused on. So what I’m looking for is to have ideas of solutions for a broken link. Another possibility would be independent links, 1 per rudder wheel (some hanses, as many other brands, have them and I think this is the most reliable setup) but this solution is very hard to build on the hanse 470 so I’m looking to other ideas besides the ones I wrote: 1. Spare link (as per Hanse project jefa sent me: roller chain + steel wire); also they mailed me about the material grades which should be used so this is something I’m going to do for sure: spare link; 2. Independent autopilot system using the rudder stock (currently the sprocket drive depends on the roller chain of the link, if the link fails, the autopilot is useless), and I would prefer to be connected directly to the rudder stock instead of quadrant; I would keep the sprocket drive unit as a spare (loosing autopilot on a long passage is really a PITA); also a strong impact may damage a linear drive faster than a sprocket one, I would say; 3. Other ideas? PS: I have a emergency rudder tiller (came with the boat) but that’s very hard to handle and before I consider it, I prefer to some time thinking on backup solutions; |
Posted By: johnyred
Date Posted: 02 April 2023 at 11:52
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Can you please specify what model boat/steering system you talk about. For at least a decade HANSE is using JEFA steering systems. They have a combination of wire-chains to transfer the wheel motion to rudder. But auto pilot is connected independently and directly on the rudder quadrant. Speaking about JEFA, even if you have the spare parts, I think it would be extremely difficult to replace wire/chain while sailing. Better if you replace them as preventive maintenance. The problems come from corrosion and not from strength. If you are looking for back up auto pilot HANSE is using JEFA DD1 motor (from 30' to 50'). Consider a under deck installation. If you are looking for rudder back up you could consider WINDVANE HYDROVANE etc systems to be deployed after wheel rudder failures or attacks. Cheers. |
Posted By: Ratbasher
Date Posted: 02 April 2023 at 14:39
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Orcas do bite: https://www.yachtingworld.com/cruising/orca-attacks-rudder-losses-and-damage-as-incidents-escalate-133968" rel="nofollow - Orca attacks: Rudder losses and damage as incidents escalate - Yachting World . However, although by far the most dramatic, an Orca attack is still one of the less-likelier causes of losing your steering. Submerged objects, ropes/nets and structural failures will all do the trick quite effectively. I strongly agree that the need to consider and practice back-ups before they're needed should be part of any serious cruisers preparations. ------------- H400 (2008) 'Wight Leopard' Gosport, UK |
Posted By: JonB
Date Posted: 10 April 2023 at 20:55
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Suggest you convert to a twin rudder system that way you might, might, just have a second rudder available to actually steer if you can turn it. If they ram the rudder then the stock will be bent and no matter what system you have you'll not be able to turn it. Suggest you buy a submarine. ------------- Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk |
Posted By: psousa
Date Posted: 14 December 2023 at 14:37
It's JEFA steering, yes. Your autopilot drive it's possibly an hydraulic or linear unit while mine is a sprocket drive (works directly on the steering chain). If the steering linkage broke for some reason, I completely loose manoeuvrability (manual or auto). This is my current Jefa autopilot sprocket drive unit: https://www.jefa.com/steering/products/drives/sprocket-150nm.htm" rel="nofollow">  Wind pilot is clearly an option, if is one of those which can work as an emergency rudder. If I can recall correctly, not all can do that.
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johnyred wrote:Posted By: psousa
Date Posted: 14 December 2023 at 16:01
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Regarding orcas, I live and sail here, on one of the most affected coast lines, and I keep watching several different cases on the local boatyards. Anyway I just give it as an example as an attack don't necessarily ripoff all your rudder. They can break linkages only (then a link backup will work) when hit/ram the rudder, they can damage only a part of the rudder (you're still able to manoeuvre to shore), but yes, they can completely rip it off (you may need to use an alternative as some wrote here and is extensively described on some of the most popular books about emergencies at sea), they can slightly bent your rudder shaft (you may still use it with limited amplitude), they may completely bent it (unusable), I saw also one broken quadrant and I even saw more than one skeg rudders completely damaged (some people believes they are able to handle an attack better than the spade rudders). Last year a Beneteau Ciclades just sunk off our coast as the impact cracked the fiberglass where the rudder stock get into the boat! Regarding this one I think we're a bit safer (just a bit as no one is safe if these big animals wants to sink your boat). I was able to compare my 470 rudder stock insertion setup with the Cyclades rudder stock insertion as we were discussing this on a whatsapp group and someone have sent some pictures of the rudder stock insertion on a Cyclades and it's completely insane. It's almost transparent!
Anyway, for these or hundred of other reasons, I think it's important to discuss backup/emergency solutions. And I reming myself about this today because, again, on a ARC crossing, another Hanse lost rudder linkage. This year's ARC: https://ibb.co/3T1GD4P" rel="nofollow">  An heads up here to the fact that they have a steering linkage independent autopilot drive unit which allowed them to keep moving on with manoeuvrability, even with a broken steering linkage. An independent autopilot drive, connected to the quadrant or, somehow, directly to the rudder stock, was one of my solutions wrote on the first post. I still believe it's a reliable one. I may decide to install one of these drives) while I'll keep my current sprocket drive working directly on the steering chain as a backup (a spare/backup autopilot drive is always a good idea on long passages). I keep a link to another similar situation, also on an Hanse (a 588), 2 years ago. Curiously during the ARC as well: https://www.sail-world.com/news/244418/ARC-2021-Yacht-Charlotte-Jane-III-abandoned This one with 2 independent steering linkages but the second one eventually failed as well, after some time.
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Posted By: Tfeyzioglu
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 20:33
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Greetings. Is the Jefa Transmission Steering System significantly better than the Lewmar Transmission Steering System? My wife and I have a Hanse 588 built in 2020, with Lewmar Transmission Steering System. The starboard transmission box started to get stuck at around 25 degrees starboard. The wheel chain continues to turn the rod on the side of the box, but the lever on top of the box stops moving and starts to show signs that a gear inside the box is skipping. At that point the wheel locks up completely. The port transmission box is also not healthy: after detaching the starboard wheel chain, the port side transmission box gets stuck around 15 degrees starboard, but gets unstuck if I move the wheel back and forth with sufficient degree, which is quite undesirable. I believe we started to see these problems after going in reverse and losing control of the wheel, which got yanked to the starboard side. We seem to have two options: Since the boat is in Yalikavak, Bodrum, Türkiye, we can have the boxes removed, opened, and damaged gears manufactured, which is expensive. Or we can replace the whole steering system from Lewmar to Jefa, which is much much more expensive. A discussion thread in 2021 suggested that Jefa systems were much better than Lewmar. Is that view still valid? Many thanks for your response. Tarhan |
Posted By: marsella
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 02:40
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Jefa is a reputable company but for anyone installing their steering, I strongly suggest reading this thread https://www.myhanse.com/steering-" rel="nofollow - https://www.myhanse.com/steering- chain-failure_topic14094_post116940.html?KW=Chain+failure#116940 as my rolling chain failed just after three years due to corrosion. Their supplied chains are made in China and I ended up changing the broken chain to Lewmar (their supplier is in Spain) although some forum folk even recommended Tsubaki (couldn't find the right length unfortunately). All this needs a careful research, there is a lot of cost cutting everywhere, which unfortunately leads to serious accidents at sea. |
Posted By: Tfeyzioglu
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 07:38
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Thank you Marsella for bringing this issue to my attention. Indeed, cost cutting by Hanse may be a possible source of my problem, especially if they installed the Lewmar steering system to reduce their costs. For this specific case, I checked and the chains are in perfect condition. Tarhan
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Posted By: Arcadia
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 15:57
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Hello Tarhan. The Lewmar gears are for su.re inferior to the Jefa. I changed mine on my 588 to Jefa a few years ago and it made a big difference in friction and force. My Lewmars did not fail, but I wasn’t happy with the performance. I still have my two Lewmar gear boxes if anyone is interested. ------------- Leon / ARCADIA 2018 Hanse 588 Sag Harbor, NY |