OSMOSIS Problems with Hanse !!

On our 4-years old Hanse 301, they have discovered osmosis in the hull and rudder.

We would like to come into contact with other Hanse-owners with similar experiences.

Thanks in advance!

An anxious owner.

OSMOSE Probleme mit Hanse !!!
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Unsere Hanse 301 hat schon nach 4 Jahren Osmose auf Rumpf und Ruder. Gerne stellen wir uns in Verbindung mit Hanse-Eigner mit ähnlichen Erfahrungen.

That sounds scary! Did you have osmose prevention?

Regards Thomas

Hello there,

So that is bad news. The most owners I know(including me) has a younger boat. I have a 341 from 2003. But was there already an osmosis resistence gelcoat on it in 2000, they are using now? I like to know if you take the boat out of the water every year. Because I let the boat in the water this year.

There is only a 2 year guarantee on osmosis but maybe Hanse will help you with this or not?

good luck with it!

greetings,

Martijn "NO FEAR"

This is rather a worry - we too have a 331 that is coming into her 5th season.

When you but a boat from new you do not expect something like this to happen.

It would be interesting to hear what HANSE have to say.

We have left our boat in the water over the last 4 years only taking her out in order to antifoul (wonderful job!!!!)

Any comments HANSE??

Hi guys,

Actually we did not have a special osmosis prevention, besides the usual (and official) paint-system. We renewed the antifouling each year.

We took out the boat of the water every winter-period. Unfortunately we cannot find out any details about the quality of the gelcoat Hanse used for our Hanse 301.

As far as Hanse is concerned; they seem not to be worrying about a serious problem with a product of 4 years old. Since more than half a year already, we are waiting for an official reaction of The Quality People in Greifswald.

An Anxious owner. 

It seems a shame that Hanse do not feel the need to be too concerned about this problem.

You have paid out a lot of money for your boat - AND it is only 4 years old.

I have discussed this issue with my hubby only this evening and he has admitted that since reading your message it has made him very concerned.

I really would be interested in what Hanse have to say.

We had the osmosis protection applied to our boat - however we had many problems with our boat when she arrived in the UK but this was more to do with the dealer at that time rather than Hanse.

To be fair to Peter Thomas and his team they put things right for us and has continued to be very supportive.

Have you spoken with your dealer about yoyur dissatisfaction??

Keep us posted 

Sue  

Hi Sue (and others),

Yes, we discussed the osmosis-problems with our supplier, who had been the official Hanse distributor for many years but isn't anymore.

He and the current distributor did their very best to help us, but until now (after many, many months) they were not able to supply us with an official reaction of The Quality People in Greifswald.

Although we have been very interested in buying a 341/342, we have become very distrustful about the after sales 'service' of The Quality People.

The current distributor has proposed a package-deal: buying a new 342 and they would look after our 301 and the osmosis problems by trading our ship in.

Our opinion, however, is that a yard should give its customers at any time a high servicelevel, independent of the question whether the client is a prospect for a new boat or not.

Meanwhile we are investigating all possible actions that might be taken to get this case in motion. 

Sue, and all the others, thanks for your sympathy.

We will keep you posted!

Rgds.

A.O. 

Hi A.O. ,

It is unbelievable that Hanse Germany will not respond on this serious issue.

Because they will lose customers like you said. And they(the distrubutor) only want to release you from your problems if you would buy a Hanse 341/342. But Hanse Greifswald should come with a solution I think. And not the distributor.

It is not normal after 4 years that you have osmosis. Then there was something wrong in the productionfase. And this has nothing to do with antifouling or something.  

This is grazy. This issue and other issues about all kind of things screams for an united european/worldwide Hanse club for all Hanseowners that can make a fist to Hanse Germany. Perhaps than they will take the problems seriously. A lot of other Hanseowners scared a lot I think from your message like I did. A lot of people do not have their boat for so many years. But now we know what is coming.................. But hopefully we will not have osmosisproblems after 4 years.

I can imagine that you lost your faith in Hanseyachts unless they build nice boats like the 341/342, etc. But it all comes with the quality and most of all the aftersales/service. And unfortunately they still refuse to learn it.

But again, all the best and good luck with it!

greetings,

Martijn "NO FEAR"  

 Well I agree with you all. And osmose is a problem. Only one that is partly not understood by all. When there are some blasters on your hull skin it is not osmose!! This is only a bubble in the gelcoat. Not nice but defenitly not osmosis. Osmose is when the laminate comes de-laminated.... and believe me that you don't want to see on you ship! So Indeed Hanse Greifswald have to learn a f....ing lot! But on the other side, they don't read this side....

For the bubbles in the hull. Just open them, was it out and let it dry. Don't believe the horror stories and buy a nice can of epoxie. Fill in springtime the gaps and put some antifouling on it. No worries and you won't see any bubble anymore....

And let's all hope that Hanse will grow up. And that we all have great dealers around the world.

Frank - Eternal Flame

I was informed yesterday eve about this osmosis problem and I'm very concerned about that.

Years ago I saw a 20 years old ship with osmosis directly after craning out of the water. There were a lot of small bubbles and if you peresses your finger nails on it there comes a clear fluid out of that. The fluid smells like a little bit between vinigar and styrol.

The owner opened all bubbles by using a grinding machine and let them dry until spring. Then it was a lot of work to fill the wholes with epoxy surfacer.

But this ship was 20 years old. In that former times there were a lot of ships built with osmosis problems later. But I thought that nowadays Osmosis doesn't happen with the modern isphtalic gelcoats.

I'm disappointed about the quality of Hanse and specially about the No-Reaction of Hanse.

My hope now is to hear an official declaration shortly.

I'm alarmed. Solidarity to A.O.

I think that all these comments are very relevant. There has been a lot of reaction to this particular topic.

It is very concerning that someone can purchase a boat and after 4 years have osmosis diagnosed.

As i said in one of my earlier messages we had huge problems with our boat - including c..p gelcoating, damaged mast, wrong size boom, damaged flooring in the main cabin, leaking freshwater and holding tanks,a clearly used sail for the self tacker, - the list went on.

Fortunately this dealer is no longer a Hanse dealer......

The dealer did not want to have anything to do with us - he wanted to wipe his hands of us. What was to have been a really happy time for us was made into a disaster. SO WHAT DO YOU DO?????

I actually mailed Germany - asking for their support, they did not reply to me at all.

It was actually Peter Thomas who is the now the main UK Hanse dealer who helped us out.

Going back to the osmosis issue - ANXIOUS OWNER - I really do hope that you manage to get your boat sorted, we are supposed to get many years pleasure from our boats. Really - - -  GOOD LUCK

But please HANSE you really do need to be making some comment about these issues because it looks very much as if you could be loosing future valuable customers - because ..... who is going to recomend a boat builder that makes very good sailing boats BUT fails to support the customer.

Sue 

Hi all,

Osmosis can be a problem no doubt. However it is not the end of the world.

I have been around GRP boats for longer than I am going to admit and have seen  this problem  for all of that time. It is much better than it was even 4 to 5 years ago.Modrn reseins are much better but are still not impervious to water penetration.

What I have always done is to scour or sand the gelcoat togive a key and then give the bottom 2 coats  of a good epoxy primer then the anti foul.

Some our locally produced boats had a bad name for the problem but every boat I have owned I have never  had osmosis.

It's like everything proper preperation is the key.

Rob

[ex Hanse Off] new 371 arriving soon]

Hi everyone,

We are really delighted with so many reactions on the osmosis-topic and so much understanding (thanks again).

Some comments on former postings:

* Meanwhile we discovered that our hull has been laminated and finished with an "Isophtalic resin" (Isophtalsaureharz) that is ment to give an extra protection against Osmosis.

* Martijn, I agree with you. Osmosis on such a young boat is not a normal thing. We suspect that Hanse has made a big mistake when producing our boat.

* Frank, Osmosis can best be ascertained by measuring the dampness of the hull. Specialists have done so with our boat. When there are bubbles as well, you should open them. If you smell vinegar (like Ralf said), you are in real trouble : osmosis.

* Detlef, you are right bij stating that the dealer is the first one to help you with solving the problems. But, when your supplier is not the official representative of Hanse anymore, you should at any time have the possibility to fall back on the producer. Isn't it just normal that a producer takes it's liability for the products he makes?

* Rob, of course we agree that Osmosis is not the end of the world. Although many specialists have many different ideas about origin and solution, we think that this might not occur on a boat that is rather new. It should be OK for at least 25 years. It can be compared with corrosion on cars. For many years one knew that this problem might manifest itself. Nowadays nobody accepts rust on its car, even when it is 7 years old f.e.  

Beside the fact that it will cost you a lot of money (we have an offer to have it repaired for an amount that exceeds € 6.000,00) the question is :

Is it acceptable that after such a short time since production 

1) these problems turned up?

2) the owner is the one that has to run the risk (and the costs)?

3) the builder investigated the problem (did some technical tests) but did not give an official reaction on this issue?

Many yachtbuilders give a guarantee on the hull (including osmosis) for 5 years. No special epoxy-primers or other prevention measures are required for this. In this setting it looks not more then just reasonable that Hanse: solves the osmosis-problems of the recent past in a decent way and gives new owners a guarantee of at least 5 years. 

Assumed that The Quality People really believe in the quality of their own products (as many other yachtbuilders simply do and underline it with good consumer-freindly conditions), won't it be time for Hanse to follow the market and do the same?

Regards to you all,

Anxious Owner  

Anxious Owner,

Unfortunately I don't have the original paper work which came with my last 371#94. I do recall that the factory advise on how to prepare the hull  before launching. I won't repeat myself on the proceedure but if you read the fine print on "other manufactures" warrenty you will find that they specify the preperation of the hull before anti fouling.

I feel sorry for you but if the original owner had followed what is normal proceedure in the southern hemisphere I know you would not have the problem now or ever.

Rob,

ex 371#94 new one coming.#260

Hi Rob,

Thanks for all your info about a good preparation of a new boat, before launching it.

I don't know what makes you think that we are NOT the original owner, because we ARE (what does it matter in this discussion anyway?).

We still have the original papers and it shows us that the hull had been prepared with an epoxy primer and well renowned antifouling after that. This all had been done by the official Hanse dealer. And as we said before, every winter our Hanse had been ashore and every spring we renewed the antifouling.

So what else may be expected from a new (first) owner of a quality-product?

For all the other Hanse owners, we hope that our problem is a "storm in a teacup", and not symptomatic for all products of Hanse.

Let's hope for you all, that the osmosis on our boat has been an incident and is caused by an unfortunate mistake while producing our yacht.

But, the certainty about this can only be given by "Greifswald". As you know we are still waiting for that, after many, many months.

Regards,

Anxious Owner    

Hanse, would you please reply to the osmosis problem posted by "anxious owner" and then we can all hopefully continue to recommend the Hanse range with confidence.

Regards,

Richard (Naddura)

Hanse !!!!!

Greifswald !!!!!!!

I think it would be fair to say that WE are all waiting for some response from you.

Anxious Owner has sparked what could be a problem - do you not think that we deserve some feedback.....

Getting another increasingly "Anxious Owner"

Sue 

Hi Sue and Others,

I think it is unlikely that you are going to get a response from Hanse Germany on here. From what I have heard they don’t look on it that often.

Peter from Hanes UK (Dealer) is away at the moment but I will drop him a note and ask maybe him to comment on it on his return from holiday.

JT
myHanse Webmaster

Hello

 Osmosis is a severe problem and to get grip of the problem and to understand what's happening theres a very good PhD paper writen on the subject i Sweden.

The repair mausure that has to be taken is to remove the gelcoat below the waterline, then use a heating lance an heat up the hull to get the styrol out. Then replace the gelcoat- it costs. This is how most Yards in scandinavia treats these damages these days.

W.R

Several of you have spoken of the recommended treatment to the hull included in your paperwork - I looked in my 'manual' and it gives no recommendations for this. I had my boat primed and antifouled by Hanse UK prior to launching but I was never told what materials were used. Does anyone know if an epoxy primer is used as standard by Hanse UK?

I understood that to give full protection to the hull you needed to apply a full epoxy system with many coats. I also read somewhere that applying this to a new hull is not a good idea as it prevents the hull from 'breathing', trapping Styrol in the lay up which can cause more trouble in the long run.

Does anyone have a view on this? 

I ordered the full system at my 341 directly from hanse. The standard made in greifswald is (thats what they told me)

2 times Gelshield - epoxy primer

2 times Micron Extra antifouling

manufactured by International.

Kind regards

Ralf

Hi Alan,

It is correct what you are saying about serveral coatings (I believe 5). The hull must breathing in the beginning. That is what they told me also. Better to do this after a few seasons. The only thing is that the boat must be totally clean so no anti-fouling. That is a little bit extra work.

But when I became the boat (okt 2003) I painted the boat myself(anti-fouling) The only thing what I put under the antifouling was a coat that makes the anti-fouling better holds, if you know what I mean. The name is heavycoat. They say that normally every Hanse will be delivered like this. It cost around 1500 euro's and they only do this and nothing more.

For the first question I do not know an answer. But in holland they do not use standard a epoxy primer.

greetings,

Martijn "NO FEAR"

Hi all,

that's my I did it myself. I saw the boats at Hanse in Greifswald and I think it's not done in a proper way.

After one winter outside I put on 5x VC-Tar2 and 2x VC-17M Extra. It looks pretty good after one season baltic sea, just the prop made some problems with ? pocken ?. Even the keel looks good - beside the downside of the keel :-(

Regards Thomas.

Hi all

I have been a boat owner for some 20 years now and always done everything myself, with good results. On a new boat -first of all sand it down with a very fine paper. Clean it remove all of the grease/wax from the production. Then put on 3 layers of epoxy, put the layers on "wet in wet". The keel needs more layers 4-5. Then put on 1 layer antifoulding. The antifolding must be in another colour so when you take the boat out of the water the next year you can see where to refresh the antifoulding. Do not use to much antifoulding, if you do you get layers which builds up and you have to strip it down after some years.

Message from Peter Thomas, Hanse UK

I am sorry I have only just seen this topic on our site as I have been away on holiday. I have read all of the postings.

Osmosis is a very wide description for all kinds of gelcoat defects most of which can be treated locally and cheaply. The speed at which boats absorb water varies considerably with local conditions and temperature and all manufacturers recommend that a boat is pulled out of the water for at least 3 months every winter. People choose to ignore this advice because modern resins are much more likely to be ok if the boat is left in for several years. You will see that in other manufacturers' so called 'guarantees' they only warranty the boat if it is dried out every winter and they will only put right obvious defects - which does not include stripping off all the gelcoat.

I do not know how bad the problem with your boat is and I think the main frustration seems to be that you think Hanse in Greifswald are not willing to talk to you.

I have spoken very briefly to the yard, who told me that they have in fact been in discussion with you over a suitable course of action. They have promised to send me all the facts tomorrow and I will reply to you again on Monday.

Can you please confirm where your boat is lying, the hull number and your name. If you prefer to do this privately, then send me an e-mail to mailto:peter@hanseyachts.co.uk - Peter  

Guys,

Reading all the discussions above I feel even stronger in my believe, based on almost 4 years of Hanse experience. The boats look good, sail well, are reasonably well build but:

- quality assurance at Hanse doesn't live up to the appropriate standards compared to our investments

- after sales service is not very well at the yard and/or the local dealers (if you ever get a respons it takes months or even longer)

- they don't apply sufficient layers of gelshield. I measured the thickness of the applied layers on my boat, this is not enough to prevent my boat from osmosis. To be properly protected you need at least 5 layers, not 2). And, by the way, gelshield is only applied if specifically ordered.

Further in the discussion I see a lot of people referring to their anti fouling. This is of no importance for the discussion on osmosis. Anti fouling, no matter how many layers you applied, does not protect nor stimulate osmosis.

I last year saw an X yachts of little more than 2 years old come out of the water which had osmosis even in such a state that delamination took place. This proves that osmosis isn't a typical Hanse problem nowadays but that it also happens to other proper yacht builders. However it makes a big difference in customer satifaction on how manufacturer solves the problem. X yachts made no problems on warranty issues but immediately brought back the yacht to Denmark and after 3 month returned it to the owner completely repaired and looking as new (without any costs for the owner of course). Hanse might take this as an example of proper after sales service and quality awareness!

Hans

Dear Mr Thomas,

Your willingness to help us is highly appreciated.

However, both our supplier and the current distributor already did their very best for many, many months. Until now they were not successful. Since last August we applied to Greifswald directly but are still waiting for an official reaction of them.

Hanse has all the information they need. Even their own technical man, 'Til Andras', came to investigate this matter in June and has reported to the yard. Our hullnumber is 83 and in Hanse's file, all the information should be available (some of which is sent several times).

As I said before (unlike your information) they have NOT been in discussion with us about any suitable course of action.

Regards,

Anxious Owner 

I feel that as Peter Thomas has now replied to the message board - give him a chance to try and do some fact finding.

If you refer to some of my past messages - it was Peter who helped us out and resolved our problems.

Sue 

Message from Peter Thomas, Hanse UK

 Yes!! You see there is always a solution. It takes time.....I know but let's be honest. When selling more than four-thousand ships from 1992 there is always a possibility that a few have some problems. Let it be.... let's say 1%.........that are 40 ships with problems...  

Okee it is really f*cking when it happens to you but let's see it in perspective....

Frank - Eternal Flame

Hi all Hanse Owners,

Finally, with help of Hanse UK, things seem to get in motion.

As Frank (Eternal Flame) stated, everything should be seen in perspective. That's right. It is not that faults should not be made (nobody is perfect), but it is all about the way to handle them.

In this respect, the reaction of Greifswald, as reproduced by Peter Thomas, creates many remarks and questions for us.

However, we won't bother you with that. Most important to us (and I think to you all) is the way Hanse might be solving this problem, after the very long period that we have been waiting for an official reaction.

We will keep you informed.

Regards,

Anxious Owner

Hi Anxious Owner [a name would be nice]

It is good to see you  are now happy,it is a shame you did not refer to the visit of the Hanse expert or the fact that he was not permitted to properly inspect these blisters they may well be osmosis BUT they might just be simple gelcoat blisters.

So lets all get on with the positive side of life and enjoy our well designed, well priced, well built yachts.

Rob.

371 #260 two weeks away.

Hi Rob and Mark,

As writen in our posting of 16 november (see above) the reaction of Greifswald causes many remarks and questions. Now that Greifswald and Hanse UK are working to solve these problems, it is not fair to give our detailed reaction on their points of view. Main issue is that they have shown that they are doing their best to solve the problems.

We feel sorry that the two of you are more or less questioning our integrity. That is not a good base for discussions on platforms that are of general interest.

Anxious Owner

Hi Guys,

I don't want this to become a personal attack on anyone so I am going to close the thread.  (I know it probably will not but I would like to keep the forum on topic).

Thanks,

Jonathan
Webmaster