Hi all,

 

We picked up our 350 #61 on the   nineth of april at Medemblik and sailed it to IJmuiden. On the 12 th of april we were going to sail it to Stellendam. A 55 mile Northsea trip. The weather soon started to deteriate and the wind 33 knots 4 mtr waves against the current. No chance to make it to Stellendam. Slamming like mad I thought the boat was going to bits. We kept this going for about 2 hours and progressed 3 miles. (work that out)

 

Then we decide to lower the main and sail back on the jib. Main did not come down since the halyard came of its block in the top of the mast. I go forward, fix myself with a safetyline and struggled to get it down. After it was down the line was totally blocked.

While sailing on the jib only the mast starts to flex like mad bending somewere in the middle forward and backwards. Tightening the backstay improved it a little. I was glad to be back in IJmuiden.

 

Then you realise a few things. The nice shiny bits of coachroof become life threatning. The steps to go inside when wet the same. One of the crew hurt her back falling down. It should all be covered with non-slip. One of our crew (me) was hit by a huge wave and had to  change. Inside most of the cupboards have opened, so have the draws. Glasses and cups broken on the floor. The seats all over the place. Because the chart table is flat navigation stuff with maps all over the floor. All the stuff, like books which were standing behind the sofabackrests on the floor. No handrail  anywhere  inside the cabin very dangerous !!

 

All the bedgear in front cabin wet, water though escape hatch. Starboard window leaking (the fixed one).

 

Lazarette had a bucket full of seawater come in. All the gear in there also wet.

Water on the shelf on starboard above the small cupboard. No idea where that came from.

 

The conclusion must be that the company who designed the inside knows nothing about sailing in these conditions and I must admitt I did not pay all to much attention to it at first.

 

Hanse themselfs seem to be cutting corners as far as safety is  concirned and at the same time claim this boat to be class A. It looks like this boat is for sailing on inside lakes on a nice day. At this stage I would not take this boat to sea again without some serious modifications.

 

My previous boat was a Beneteau 281 and although I never liked the sailingcapabilities never ever was there a drop of water inside, handrails everywere. Nothing could fall out of anything. We never took it to sea but the area we sail in can be just about as rough as the sea.

 

Since we cannot raise the mainsail anymore we will sail(motor) her home through rivers and canals, which is a long way around. No more sea for us for now. ( mailto:#@@@#@#@$%%^^%29This - #@@@#@#@$%%^^)This starts with a F.

 

Will call the dealer tomorrow. (grrrrrrrrrr)

 

Regards, Willem

 

 

Also I think that the boat and crew was not prepared for the conditions you met.

I think that the simple fact that the boat returned you home without any damage means something.Broken cups, wet books and dirty pillows are not welcomed but actualy not important. I suggest you plan a bad weather checklist, do some small improvements in the boat furnirure, and go out in the sea again.

 

This sounds like a nightmare for you, and I hope you will provide us with the the answer you get from your dealer.

 

We`r going to Greifswald in 8 days, sailing our new 350, 550 nmil to the west of Norway so it is of great interest to hear if the are something wrong with the design.

It is not obvious to me in all aspects by your information. I hope it is okey for you that I post my comments on this topics, I know it is very easy, sitting at my computer to see what you might have done wrong or should have done otherwise but a boat in Class A does not mean it will handel all kind of us in conditions like this... This is also pointed out in the handover book.

 

1. "Slamming like mad I thought the boat was going to bits..."

I am sure you know that this boat and many new designs like this has very flat bottom, making it fast but the designer ofcourse know this is not the best solution in the kind of conditions you experienced. We therefore need to take in account this when sailing in rough conditions against the wind and sea as you did. I am sure you did have both reef in the main, how much did you reef the selftaker? I have read that there should have been a 3. reef. Mayby this is some of the improvements we all need to do. What speed did you have in this conditions? My experience is that if the wind and waves comes from the same directions you need to make lower progression and/or reduce speed (more reefing) to reduce this serious slamming which is not good for the boat over time. It might be difficult but you need to avoid that speed are to high and/or directions you hit the waves with, is to direct.

 

2. "...Main did not come down since the halyard came of its block in the top of the mast..."

 

This I think several Hanse owner has experienced, I know from reading this forum and I wonder why Hanse still have not found a solution that makes this impossible, is it that difficult? I guess it will happen if the main are slamming, but from time to time this will happen so it should not get jammed beacuse of this, bad solution and dangerous...

 

3. "While sailing on the jib only the mast starts to flex like mad bending somewere in the middle forward and backwards..."

 

As Panos wrote it is not a good idea to sail in this conditions with just the jib up. If you have to do this no need to reef the jib quite a lot, making it at the size of a storm jib. Did you do that? If so it is disturbing news that the mast are pumping so badly. I hope you will check the tention on the rigg and tell us about it. The rigg need to be very thight and you need a tentionmeter to find out, it is not possible to find out without... Do not trust that your dealer does this good enhough. Get an rigging expert to cheeck your rigg.

 

4. "The nice shiny bits of coachroof become life threatning. The steps to go inside when wet the same..."

 

I have noticed this and I fully agree, it is not safe, but design have been more and more importante to sell sailingboats, so in some respect it is our fault, sometimes it is not easy to make both secure, low price and good looking sailboats. This is anyway a bad compromise from Hanse. Needs to be fixed.

 

5. Things flying around in the boat from cupboards and draws opening

 

This seems to be a very bad design. You need to put the knob in but I am sure you did... To bad solutions, I have placed it on my cheecklist...

 

6. Water comming in several places.

 

This was not nice reading, but I think sadly it is more the rule than not that there are leakages in new boats. I am planing to test this before leaving Greifswald, but it might ofcourse not appare before you have high seas and heavy conditions like you had...

 

Well, this was my thoughts by the information you have given us, I hope you will follow up with news. I will ofcourse post a report from our deliverytripp to Norway when we hopefully have reached our homeport safely...

 

 

 

 

 

"...........wind 33 knots 4 mtr waves against the current.............."

 

And this in front of the harbour of Ijmuiden!!!!!! I have been there several times. This is a nightmare in these cvonditions.

 

I learned not to go out in these conditions unless i know my boat very well.

 

This was your 2 nd trip with this boat! I think your solution to go inside the channles to the south of netherlands is absolut right.

 

It is absolutely not ok with the technical problems you found out on your Hanse. This is very unplaesent and annoying. I hope Hanse will help you at all these points. Especially the problem with the halyard is really dangerous also the slippery deck. This must be fixed aswell as all the leaks. I will have a look at these points when they deliver my Hanse 370

 

But look also at yourself and not only the boat, maybe you were to ambitious.

 

To make it clear to you. We were very well prepared, had all the gear on board and were wearing sea going gear .

Of course had two reefs in the main and a crew with years and years of  experience in simular conditions.

I too understand that wet seats etc are not important but if they make you almost break your neck tripping over them if you need to go inside they become a hazard !!!

 

The main sail never flapped as you suggest. It just did not come down in the first place with the  halyard jammed.

Not lowering the main once you decide to run away will give you a boat which is totally  out of control.

 

It is the only way to do this !!!!! of course with the reefed jib out. 8 knots running away with a stable ship. If you know a better way let me know. You might want to think again before you make statements like that. The sailing experience of the crew is no less then 40 years each excuse me.

 

Willem

 

Here are the link to simalar problems on the 430

http://www.myhanse.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=20&PN=2 - http://www.myhanse.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=20&PN=2

 

Not any conclutions on this topic by now but as you see several have experienced this

Will let you all know the outcome of my discussions with Hetterschijt and thank all of you for the suggestions.

 

Regards,Willem

 

 

 

 

A ship is as seaworthy as its crew. From what you have written I assume that the crew was seaworthy enough.

 

It is scary that you had to discover several leakages on that trip.

However leakages are not new on Hanse yachts. Apparently your boat was not tested on leakages before the handover, which is a bl......... shame.

 

There is one other thing that crossed my mind. A sailor can only chosse the weather in the port of departure.

 

Good luck!

 

That's exactly wat happened.

 

Left IJmuiden with a 5 bft. Of course prepared ourselfs for worse like you do en must do. Since we have internet on board we checked the forcast until the last moment of departure. Got another specialised one from the harbourmaster at IJmuiden and decided to go.

 

One hour on the way the wind goes to 6 bft and we were making less progress. Sure enough 1/2 hour later 7 bft and you could tell it was not going to become any better. There were stonger gusts again.

 

All this was totally unexpected. So much for all these forcast.

 

Cheers, Wilem

 

You describe the situation as :

copain wrote: no chance to make it to Stellendam . Slamming like mad I thought the boat was going to bits. We kept this going for about 2 hours and progressed 3 miles. (work that out)

 

If there are such obvious short comings with the boat - why did you purchase this make / model in the first place? Surely you done a Sea Trial?

 

Given your experience, why did you not ask for table fiddles and hand holds to be fitted as required?

 

I realise that such failings should not happen on a class A boat, but at the same time Hanse (UK) are  happy to fit these items when requested.

 

I find it strange that a lot of the complaints you mention are obvious and quite well known. These are the type of complaints raised while at a boatshow - never mind a sea trial.

 

That aside - Even as a newcomer to sailing, I find it hard to imagine the thought process of the genius at Hanse that thought smooth polished areas of the deck were a good idea!

 

This crossed my mind at the boatshow while walking around the deck area and while its stupid, I accepted it as a design failing knowing I could add my own grip if required. The good features of the boat out weighed the bad for me - hence I made the purchase.

 

Personally I think any boat classified as class A should come suitably equipped (by law) including:

Jackstays, Storm Jib and completely water tight companionway closure (probably many other things). You dont go out and decide what seat belts to fit after hand over of a new car!

 

Lastly, there should be a measurable and repeatable pressurised leak test carried out before any boat is passed through Q&A. You can see daylight through my lazerette locker - and while Hanse said they would rectify it it somehow got forgotten in the hand over process! These leaks should not happen - especially when they are clearly visible!

 

 

I fully agree Johan. Hanse's carry a lot of sail area  and are fractional with huge mainsails (compared to other boats) like racers. The rig has to be tuned carefully and very hard.

Also it is very important to keep it trimmed (working with the controls).

 

Thank you for sharing your experience with us, and hopefully it will  not, in the end, shake your confidence in your boat.   It should not.  After 2 seasons with my 370 I am absolutely convinced that no other 11.5 metre boat I could afford to buy would have given me so much fun or be as fundamentally safe.  If my budget had been £200,000 I would have bought a Southerly or a Najad or a Halberg Rassey, but it wasn't, so I didn't.  I guess this is a compromise we have all made whatever size of Hanse we have.  Compared with a Benateau or Dufour or Bavaria then I think the Hanse stands out. 

 

RCD "A" (Ocean) rating does not mean that a boat is perfectly set up for deep sea storms straight from the box.  It only means that certain defined characteristics are designed for and or equipment included.  My previous boat was a Bavaria 34, which also was category "A" rated, but I would never have contemplated taking it across the Atlantic.  I would, however, take my 370 if the chief crew ever gave her permission.

 

Others have commented on the importance of rig tension and I would echo their advice.  I pushed my cap shrouds up to 15% and the intermediates pro-rata.  I am thinking that I may go higher this year to perhaps 20%.  This pre bend along with backstay tension is important to counter the risk of mast pumping as we cannot have a self tacking headsail and a baby stay.

 

One other tip I would offer is to slide the reefing lines where they circle the boom aft by 20cm so that they will flatten the sail more when tightened.  This means that the stack bag has to be adjusted.  Back in 2006 I had to beat against 45 knots for 3 hours on the way back to the UK and I felt that the Hanse setting left the reefed sail too full and with too much power even with the traveller dropped to leeward.  I also had the sailmaker add a 3rd reef as well.

 

 

Best of luck with sorting the leaks out. 

 

Regards

 

 

Ian

 

 

 

Regarding the mast pumping. One thing that I learned is, that never trust the mast set up i.e. scroud tension if not done by my self. When we picked up our 342 the first thing I checked was the scroud tension and found that Wendell & Rados who is doing the job does not tension the scrouds for bad weather conditions. The mast need a lot of tension on the scrouds, aprox. 17-19% of breakage point to avoid most pumping and it's delivered in Greifswald with only 10-12% on the scrouds.

/Steen   

Shouldn't Hanse provide recommended settings and tensions to riggers who commision the boats?

 

The various tensions mentioned by different posts indicate this subject to be very subjective - there must be some formula / guidelines / science to ensure its done correct?

 

Considering the nature of the rig this all seems a little lapse...

Even if I get my rig checked by a 'rigger' how do I know its correct when you recieve the boat?

 

The more I read this forum ... the more I'm convinced my boat is going simply fall to pieces!

Br00tus: Don`t worry to much. It is not the end of the world, far from. You will need to adjust the rigg after sometime even if the tention is okey at delivery. If you dont like to do this your self there must be a lot of riggers how can do this the right way, it seems R&D is not one of them. Sadly as it is R&D how fits mine. I don`t have a tentionmeter with me, should have I see now, but I guess this is not easy to find in Germany in a day or two...

 

Copains report was not good reading I agree and I am very interessed to see what he finds out about this topics. Leaks are a well know problem on new boats. It must be possible to fix but ofcourse it is very annoying. Pumping rigs seems to be a well know thing about Hanse, also both annoying and scary but normaly (hopefully) it is just the tuning of the rig that is wrong. The boat slamming in the waves I think will happen to most new design boats in those conditions... It is a drawback with our fast small boats... Compromise... Well, I am still confident that my 350 will be a good boat, and it is not a long wait anymor, just 6 days... I`ll be back with my experience after 550 nmil, planning to be at my homeport 4 of may it will be a report straight after that...

 

I am a bit concerned by your comments and like to check my rig before I go out in any serious weather again.

 

Send an e-mail to Jørn in Stavanger, he is the one at Hanse in Norway (Nelson) how have this in his fingers... Very good sailor...

 

From North Sails : http://www.nspsb.co.uk/ChooseBoat.asp?LanID=GBR&BoatType=&Builder=72&Action=Info - http://www.nspsb.co.uk/ChooseBoat.asp?LanID=GBR&BoatType=&Builder=72&Action=Info

 

Select your model when select 'Trim Tips'

 

 

 

Got home safe through the Dutch channels and rivers (very nice trip) after our Northsea adventure.

Hetterschijt organised for me to go to a rigger to fix the problem with the halyard jamming.

 

Looking at the problem

 

 

The problem !!

This is how the disk came out and the rigger told me this material is moulded while proper disks should be turned out of solid teflon like material.

There is a bush inserted which is made of teflon? ALthough on the picture below the material looks different from the pic above it is the same stuff. It has to do with camera settings

The one above is the real color.

I reckon the fact there is a bit of play between bush and disk and another bit of play between the shaft end the bush this adds to the problem.

f.e holding the bush I could move the disk 3mm either way. I was not able to check the play of the bush against the shaft but if that would be same we are talking about 6 mm.

 

 

This the material which should have been used according to the rigger and the only one he would put in. Turned out of a solid bar of teflon. He also told me disks made of the moulded material could just split through the middle.

Looking at this material I would say. This is the stuff !!!

There are a lot of people in our marina using this rigger and they all are impressed with his advise and service.

 

The groove in the molded disk is deeper which makes the walls a lot thinner for longer. Its difficult to show this unless you spend a day doing measurements but I just held it against the light to give you an idea. see below.

 

 

Any ideas of how to prevent these things from happening for future Hanse owners ???

 

I would like to say Hetterschijt reacted promptly and handled this matter

correctly.

 

Greetings Willem

 

 

Thanks for sharing this link. I was not aware of this and found it very useful!

 

I have difficulties loging into myhanse.com sometimes so therefor my promises to give you the tention-guide for the 350 rigg, did take some time, but here it is (I have got this information from my Norwegian dealer, Nelson Marine):

 

Cap-Shrouds: 22%

Intermediate Shrouds: 14%

Lower Shrouds: 18%

 

 

Thanks for the info on the 350 rig tension.

Have written them down.

 

As far as the handling of the main halyard jamming I need to say Hetterschijt have done a good job in making an appointment for me to go to this rigger (called Neut-Mast in Middelharnis) while this guy is very busy.

I know the guy and I know he is very good. He is a dealer to Sparcraft and accepts no compromise for quality.

 

There was just not enough time to talk to him about rig tension. There were three other boats with all sorts of mast problems waiting to be helped.

 

I will need some more time to inform you about the rest of the items.

 

Regards, Willem

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to say. Feel confident the 350 is a good boat I am sure and like a few members stated maybe I should have been more carefull in taking a new boat into these conditions straight away.

 

At the time I thought force 5. So what. we were prepared for it and then it became force 6  with gusts to 7 and a sort of nightmare. But then it showed its strenght and got us back to port without a hinch. A bit of water here and there is no problem. (when I wrote my previous report I was mailto:P@###$$$off - P@###$$$off with it) but now I think its a good boat although it needs a few modifications here and there

 

Will be looking forward to your report after you sailed her home not long after the 4th of may.

 

Have a good trip.

 

Regards, Willem

 

Same to me, but i have a solution:

 

Delete all temporary internet files. And after that you can log in. Thats the way i do it.

 

Thank you, I still think it is a great boat and the right choois for us, but ofcourse reading your report was a bit of a disapointment. Still I am aware that a boat needs to be learned and tuned before making any judgment. I am ofcourse looking very much forward to our long journey home. I have experience crew and are as you, well prepared. At least I think so...

 

I realise my response to your reaction on my post is a bit late , but I have been very busy and did not look at the answers on my posts very good.

 

The main was of course reefed twice ( had no third one) and according to our expectations about the weather we thought we would not need a third reef.

 

Then the question about lowering the main and sail back with the jib:

 

Lowering the main was impossible due to what I discribed before and I don't think you would like to run into a port with the main up ?? in these conditions. I thought `if this sail does not come down, I will go back inside to get my knife (which I should have on me) and cut the main to ribbons`and I would have. We are talking about trying to make it out alive you know.

So once we decided it has to come down one way or the other we were happy it did. I went forward to pull it down with all my force (110kg) on a lifeline and it almost  came down. ( not all the way, but good enough).

 

We then got the jib out half way I suppose and the boat was very controlable. You can imagine being pulled forward by the jib only half out with 8 knots speed. If in these conditions you were to rely on your main and jib or main only you then are not pulled forward but pushed forward and the boat becomes a bit unstearable. This is my experience from previous occasions. We use to say with conditions like this you would dig yourself in, meaning nose down, rear up and no proper stearing no more.

 

It of course is a balance between the different sail settings I know but in this case it had to do with trying to survive ok?

 

I do agree with you that the fact the boat brought us home is a very big +++++ so next time I go out I will not be worried no more. Broken stuff is totally unimportant ( altough the wife thinks different) but as I stated in my previous post broken stuff can be very dangerous too.

 

Thanks for the input Panos.

I do like this forum !!

 

Regards, Willem