BAMAR Furler?
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Topic: BAMAR Furler?
Posted By: TAIMA
Subject: BAMAR Furler?
Date Posted: 23 April 2009 at 23:07
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Hi everyone, I wonder what experiences you all had so far with the BAMAR furling system on the 630, basically related to the mechanichs, construction, assembly and operation . I already have the second system on board (paid by Bamar) and the fourth torque tube!
Regards ------------- Thomas Pollehne Hanse 630/06 TAIMA |
Replies:
Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 23:34
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Hi, We have no problems yet. Can you please describe how the first signs of failure appeared. Also what is the torque tube? Referring to the operation, the furler is weak and can only furl/unfurl the sail when completely unloaded, meaning we cannot furl it upwind if the sail is flapping. We have to sail shortly downwind and hide the jib behind the main. This is not a big problem and we got used in it. ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: Peter-Blake
Date Posted: 25 April 2009 at 09:08
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Hmmmm, a flapping jib is not possible to furl when the bow is in the wind?????
You have to sail downwind for that?
Seems to be really weak.
What do you do if you are close to the coast to leeward. You can get fast into danger.
------------- Blake 370 
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Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 25 April 2009 at 16:15
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Hi, Not really a problem. The same you would do to take down a spinnaker. Just needs some planning ahead. If we are close to the coast we can use the jib to sail a little bit upwind. I see no danger in that. The real danger can result if we cannot unfurl the jib to escape the coast in case of engine failure, but unfurling is less demanding on power and we can unfurl upwind. There is a manual mechanical override but is almost useless since you must really hand outside to engage it. ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: TAIMA
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 23:49
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Hi Panos,
the furling power you can adjust on the Bamar control unit. Usually they adjust it from factory I think to only 50 Amps but you can go up to 100 easy and we even tried out 120 . This gives the power to fur in in "normal" conditions even going upwind but easing the sheets of course.
The real problem with Bamar starts if you need, for any reason, to reef the jib, like we had to do daily on our atlantic crossing as you would expect any other system to do. The whole asembly of the motor unit over the torque tube (the one that connects the motor with the headfoil) and the connection to the headfoil is very weak and only held together by small M6 stainless steel bolts cutted into aluminium. I will try to post some pictures but first have to learn how to reduce their electronic size. Our system started to fail the first time only 24 hours after leaving Greifswald and before passing the Kiel canal. The torque tube to headfoil joint just did not make it, it was a tube inside a tube held together by only M5 Allen screws. The second time it failed just off the english sw coast and we had to go into Scilly islands by night. There we fixed this as good as possible and reached Mallorca. In ;allorca Bamar staff came on board and changed the tube increasing the number and size of the screws. They came back a few weeks later to Laos to make the same repair on Hanse 630#11 gandul and checked out ours. Both systems on both our boats were totally damaged after the atlantic crossing in normal conditions, so BAMAR had to change them again.
The first signs you will see when you unfurl your sail and just check if all the screws are on place (torque tube- headfoil joint and on the lower side the torque tube to motor unit joint. Usually when the first one goes missing the next ones follow soon.
Again I will try to post pictures soon to make myself clear!
Regards ------------- Thomas Pollehne Hanse 630/06 TAIMA |
Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 27 April 2009 at 18:19
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Thanks Thomas, I will inspect the torque tube this weekend and post some pictures. We try to avoid reefing the jib as instructed by North sails. We carry a storm jib instead, that can by hoisted on a removable inner forestay, but we never had the chance to use it until now. We use all the jib up to 24 knots true wind. At about 16 to 18 knots we takein the first reef and at 22-24 knots the second one. All above when sailing hard upwind. We never sailed upwind in stronger wind until now. The boat makes 9.5 to 10.5 knots speed and the apparent wind feels very stormy. It is also possible that the wind gauge is under registering the wind speed but I calibrated the instrument during a totaly windless night when the wind speed indicated was equalled to the boat speed and SOG registered by the GPS motoring to any direction. ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 08:14
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Hi,
It took a while to check. And ups.., three screws were missing and two more were broken inside. We replaced them all, not an easy job, but most probably saved the furler.
 THE FURLER TUBE (WE ARE HOLDING IT) WHICH CONNCTS TO THE DRUM (BELOW) BY A FEW M5 SCREWS.
 THE FURLER TUBE (AFTER REMOVING THE SCREWS) LIFTED OFF THE DRUM BELOW. THE HALF DESTROYED SCREW WINDINGS ARE OBVIOUS. NEW WINDINGS WERE CUT INTO THE ALUMINIUM.
 ANOTHER VIEW OF THE UPPER PART OF THE DRUM. ONE SCREW INSERTED IN THE WINDINGS FOR DEMONSTRATION AND TESTING PURPOSE.
------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: Richard108
Date Posted: 09 July 2009 at 00:19
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We have a 540 with a Facnor furler. So a different boat with a different furler, but perhaps similar problems. The stainless steel screws holding the joins in the foil were being sheared off we assume by the twisting motion when furling - perhaps made worse if the back stay or headsail halyard tensions had been loosening before foiling. We ended up replacing all the screws with larger ones and we now have the problem of them falling out even though they had been lock tightened in. Our current assumption is that the furler is undersized and cannot cope with the loads we put on it. Looking at the Facnor size recommendations shows that our furler is at the top end of the size recommendations for this length of boat, however we have a big rig for this size of boat. The next size up would appear better fit for a 540 Hanse. Perhaps the furlers on the 630's are undersized as well to cope with the loads that a Hanse puts on them. ------------- Regards Richard ("Moksha" 540 #115 delivered Sept 2007) Pittwater, Sydney, Australia |
Posted By: TAIMA
Date Posted: 14 July 2009 at 15:14
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Hi Panos,
I have been out for quite some time so did not check de blog for a while and just saw the pictures of your BAMAR System, its a deja vu, and I am sorry to say .." I knew it". Probably if you mostly sail in calm waters the problem will occur later but I see no technical reason for it not to occur.
The main problem here is that the power is transmitted from the engine over a torque tube to the headfoil. And all there is to transmit the force is a 4 mm spline and a few stainless steel screws cutted into aluminium. The problem is bigger if you sail your headsail reefed, as in that condition the full traction rests on the few screws and spline. Its just impossible that they hold. If you then furl and unfurl a few times a day , like on an atlantic crossing each time a squall shows, the system will be done after a short time. We had just one unbroken screw at the bottom and like 3 at the top of the torque tube after the crossing.
And beeing my boat the number 6, we still had the old model which was a round tube inside a round tube. They later changed this to a profiled torque tube .
In our case the system started to fail for the first time in the Kiel canal, after only 140 miles from Greifswald. We detected the problem and changed the screws on the upper end. For the second time all the screws were broken aand/ or fell of arriving at Scilly Island at the tip of England. we had to look for shelter there in tthe middle of the night and had to opeb new holes and put bigger screws in place. This held till Mallorca, where Bamar came to change the torque tube for the first time.
Back in Lagos in Portugal they came on board to recheck and to change the tube on the Hanse 630 # 11 GANDUL . After the crossing the thing went so bad that they had to change the complete Furler and they added the new version (profiled tube). Since then it is more or less OK, but we try not to reef in order to avoid too much stress on the system , but it definetely is not a product to cros oceans. It is a product to look nice on boats that do not sail much .
An other problem is, when you check their construction/mounting drawings, you will find out that there is no space between the screws attaching the torque tube to the engine and the turnbuckle holding the forestay. This space is so reduced that those screws hit the turnbuckle and act as a brake. In fact after installing the new system it was hardly moving until we found out that the screws were acting on the turnbuckle, so we had to remove those screws (delivered by BAMAR) and change them to a smaller size.
No wonder HANSE does not use the system anymore on the 630.
Regards,
Thomas ------------- Thomas Pollehne Hanse 630/06 TAIMA |
Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 30 July 2009 at 18:07
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Hi, I dont see any clear reason why these screws unscrew. They should not get any load. The torque while furling/unfurling is taken by the shaft key, which is in perfect shape. Only while tensioning/untensioning the sail luff they could get some axial loads. My only explanation is that they get unscrewd because of extreme vibrations during tacking. By the way we never sail with partially reefed jib. We either unfurl it all or else we use the storm jib on the inner forstay. After many experiments during the Aegean rally we found that we have to reef between 18 to 20 knots true. We throw the second reef at about 25 knots and over 30 we change to the storm jib. More wind than 34 knots (true) we did not encounter. We made 8.2 to 9.5 knots close hauled and 11.5 to 12.8 if at around 60 degrees (true). Yes the 630 can plane  on the waves. We need two waves to plane but then the speed climbs to 16.5 to 17 knots and stays there for long.------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: TAIMA
Date Posted: 31 July 2009 at 13:38
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Hi panos,
I cannot recognize if you already have the newer torque-tube connection (sort of an triangular shaped profile) or if you still have the old version in which they just used a round tube inside a tube. In any case, even with the newer version, if you connect the torque tube to the headfoil there is a space for them to move. All that avoids the movement is the shaft key ( did not know this word) which is so underdimensioned that sooner or later the screws will start to work and wear off.
You also should check if on the lower end of the tube, whre this is attached to the furler, the screws are not hitting the turnbuckle . we also had that phenomena, which again will contribute to the faster wear off of the screws bolted in the aluminium.
Bottomline is that the BAMAR system is a ral weak, not very well designed system, so much that Hanse does not install it any more on the 630. When I asked the bamar technitian why this was happening, he replied that this only happens at the Hanse 630 and all their other clients like Perini Navi or Wally never showed this problem. Of course my answer was, that those boats only are designed to "look nice in harbours" and not for real world sailing. You can imagine why these guys dont talk to me anymore!
Regards,
Thomas Pollehne ------------- Thomas Pollehne Hanse 630/06 TAIMA |
Posted By: david444
Date Posted: 23 September 2009 at 16:12
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Hi, i have already had to replace 2 torque tubes on the bamar! and probably expect to carry on replacing them as time and milage goes on. We have done about 15000miles sailing with the system. We are on 130 amps! unfortunatly like many things with Hanse this furler system is not actually suppost to be used to furl a headstay, wrong specification! The Bamar system that most of us have is a spherical self-alining furler! A spherical furler cannot handle the friction involved with a headstay and so that is why bolts fall out and torque tubes need replacing. now hanse have stop using bamar, probably because they just realised it was the wrong spec! with all the warrenty claims, etc! cheers, david. 630#17 |
Posted By: TAIMA
Date Posted: 23 September 2009 at 17:03
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Hi David,
its a little more complicated than that! In fact BAMAR recognises that the system is perfect for this size of boat. They will tell you that this system works perfectly on all other big boats like Wally, Perini navi etc.,
and that this particular system is good enough for boats up to 80 feet. I have had long discussions with Hanse, the german dealer for bamar as well as the italian manufacturers including the technitian (Paolo) who visited us on our boat already 3 times, the last time to exchange the complete system on both boats down here in Venezuela.Following are findings and conclusions I came up with :
a) If you have the old torque tube (round tube inside a round headfoil ) there is no mechanical way the screws will not fall off eventually as they take most of the load and are just M6 screws cut into aluminium.
b) if you have the new torque tube which is a triangular shape, you will be better off as finally the shape will start transmitting the power, once the screws fail.
c) the connection at the bottom between torque tube and the driving flange of the engine is also bound for failure, as the complete force is taken initially by a small 4 mm stainless steel splint inside an aluminium groove. The additional screws help to avoid this but finally it will fail.
d) when you take the actual technical drawings of Bamar, you will see they specify M8 x 14 mm screws to attach the bottom of the torque tube. When you add these measures and consider the interior available space of the torque tube and the turnbuckle holding the headstay, by simple math you will find out that the screws hit the turnbuckle and will scratch and damage it, as well as break themselves and finally fall off. The maximum size scrw cannot be more than 10 mm.
When we showed this to the italian technitian he said something about a change of the headstay size from originally 12 mm to 14 mm ordered by Sparcraft, and that was the cause there was not enough space for the torque tube to turn around the headstay.
My conclusion is that the bamar system looks good, but is very bad designed and very poorly crafted. We had differences of +- 2 mm in the depht of holes and other measures from side to side. I also think they have not coordinated the design with Sparcraft and Hanse to make it work properly. Finally the whole power transmission based on a few scrws is a joke and whoever designed it this way should go back to school.
The system however "looks good" and specially happens to look good on large Wallys and Perinis, who apparently are boats only used to look good themselves in mediterranean ports iluminated by night and if they sail, they sail on flat water with max. 12 knots of wind!!! (excuse my sarcasm, but I have really had it with Bamar!!)
You are right that Hanse stopped using this "micky mouse design" just because it did never work the way it should have. Since I have the new system (from Bamar) aI corrected the size of screws, and what i do is that I never use the headsail reefed, because this is what mostly affects the system. I also ease the sheet completely and roll in observing the situation closely. No way it will furl in on a 40 knot squall running against the sea!!!. I have not sailed much the last 12 month (maybe 1.500 nm) and I have a total of 11.000 since bought the boat in 2007.
regards ------------- Thomas Pollehne Hanse 630/06 TAIMA |
Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 23 September 2009 at 18:03
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Hi, Finally we also have the same problems! Our Hanse dealer somehow fixed the motor to tube connection, but now the tube to tube connections started to fail. Already the first two tubes are holding with just one screw!!! My opinion is that the screws fail because of shear forces along the lenght of the forestay (and not because of torque). This happens because the luff of the sail changes continuously while sailing because of stretch, while the luff tube do not stretch. While the sail is stretching under wind loads the tubes try to elongate, so the joint is subject to axial loads. The screws shear and fall out. Now Balmar wants us to remove the tubes send them to their factory and install them after they correct them. THIS CANNOT BE ACCEPTED SINCE MOST OF THE COST IS TO REMOVE THE TUBES. BESIDES THAT I DO NOT KNOW HOW THIS WORK CAN BE DONE. @TAIMA: Do you have any pictures taken during this operation, just in case I have to do the job myself? (and ask the money from Hanse later) ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: TAIMA
Date Posted: 23 September 2009 at 20:07
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Hi,
we removed the complete headfoil and the way to do so was by taking off the heastay on the top of the mast. You have to deassemble the tubes from the top to the bottom until you reach the connection tube between the headfoil and torque tube. I will look for some pictures and eventually post them! The work takes about 6 hours with 3 people. We managed to get the stay down without a crane, just using the halyards. We did the job the same day on both boats. ------------- Thomas Pollehne Hanse 630/06 TAIMA |
Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 27 December 2009 at 09:47
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Hi, Finally and after a lot of pressure the Greek dealer of Bamar increased the diameter of the screws connecting the furler tubes to each other. I think they did a good job. In the mean time Bamar is refusing to compensate their dealer because they claim that it is Hanse who should pay them. Bamar claims that Hanse chose to install a weaker furler than Bamar suggested, so they (Hanse) are responsible. I am waiting the official letter from Bamar! Most probably the Hanse dealer and the Bamar representative will resolve their case in court, unless Hanse accepts their fault and take the cost (a few thousands Euros). After giving a lot of thought to the subject I think that my furler lasted more because I have carbon sails. There are two mechanisms of failure: 1)The weight of the jib. Every wave moves the heavy jib up and down 2)The elasticity of the jib. Every wind blow stretches the jib. Both actions exercise longitudinal forces to the furler tube which result in shear forces to the screws holding the tubes together. After a while these fail. Carbon sails are both lighter and stress less under tension, so my furler was saved. ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: TAIMA
Date Posted: 19 January 2010 at 22:02
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Hi Panos,
I have not been online for a while, just came back from our holiday tour of 4 weeks through the Virgin Islands. To your Bamar experience I have a few comments:
- Bamar always stated so far that this system works for boats as large as 80 feet Wallys. They also stated that this problem only occurs on Hanse 630. When asked why they dont have a clue.
- I know from the discussions with the yard, bamar, the riggers at Wendel&Rados, the german Bamar dealer, the Bamar technitian, that in a sort of a "last minute" decision the mast builder Sparcraft decided to increase the diameter of the head stay from 12 mm to 14 mm and that Bamar accepted that the system would work with it. One consequence of this action is that the screws attachinhg the torque tube are too long and eventually scratch or get blocked by the headstay turnbuckle.
- the problem of the loosening screws on the torque tube , in my opinion has nothing to do with the type or weight of the sails ( I have UK carbon-tape drive sails ) . One major issue is if you sail your headsail reefed, as in that moment the complete tension of the sail works on the torque tube and the screws.
- In the cases of both boats lying in Venezuela , Bamar recognized their responsability by exchanging free of charge the two systems completely. Hanse at that point had no part in this anymore. And furthermore I can tell you that beeing with the technitian while exchanging the systems, we found out that technically the system could not work, based on their construction and installation drawings, again the screws were to long and the system would have destroyed itself again. Luckily we found out on time and got new and shorter screws which would not collide with the turnbuckle on the headfoil.
- Also I can state that the Bamar system is quite poorly manufactured, with very lousy tolerances and differences in sizes of holes, seats, diameters, thicknesses etc.
As I told the Bamar technitian, on whom of course we unloaded our disappointment, ...."the system works on the Wallys or Perinis as these guys just have boats to look nice in ports and if they sail a sunday afternoon they do this in flat water with a maximum of 15 knots while having the martinis on the backdeck...." Of course the poor guy was not amused on such arrogant opinion. But at that stage I really had it with Bamar and was quite disappointed. One big problem is, that so far we owners of 630 with Bamars have no real alternative ,. Hanse uses different systems now, I think from Furlex or Profurl? and they changed the attachment system, for which they had to make changes in the original hull and deck mould . So if the day comes for a change, we will either have to stick with bamar , sell the boat or see whatever other solution we come up with.
Regards
------------- Thomas Pollehne Hanse 630/06 TAIMA |
Posted By: ZENYACHT
Date Posted: 27 March 2010 at 16:56
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Dear Fellows
I didnt have this problem until we had the Atlantic crossing. The screws were seared two times in the crossing. we are studying other solutions now. We have talked with a rigger with good knowledge of Sparcraft rigs in Gudeloupe Island and he said our furler is tearing the screws apart because the mast pumping. It looks it is a common issue on high aspect ratio Sparcraft rigs. The issue is normally found either in the furler or in the lower sections of the aluminium profile. The screws were either loss or sheared like cheese because the stress concentration in the forestay when the mast pumps. We have see a 630 in the Antigua , English Harbor Island. He just modified the rig to put running backstays from the last spreader to both sides aft. This is used when reaching or motoring upwind and the mast is pumping. I think he has the same problem that our yachts but I could no locate a human bean sticking around the yacht to get more information. I have to say I have never that problem before while cruising the med sea. Most owners will experience this problem while sailing in heavy swell upwind. Ideas welcomed ZENCAP
------------- ZENCAP |
panos wrote:Posted By: ZENYACHT
Date Posted: 27 March 2010 at 17:12
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Dear Owners
I just found a clever phrase from TAIMA want to reproduce herein. As with the furler problem the reason some owners have not experiencing some problems is just they have using their yacht very lightly. [COLOR=red]As I told the Bamar technitian, on whom of course we unloaded our disappointment, ...."the system works on the Wallys or Perinis as these guys just have boats to look nice in ports and if they sail a sunday afternoon they do this in flat water with a maximum of 15 knots while having the martinis on the backdeck...." The issue coming to my mind is the following What are the issues a Hanse owner have to address for their safety before a real offshore cruising experience?. The problem is not only with Bamar the other Brand furler screws pop out or sheared in a similar way. Another issue that came to my mind is Has Hanse checked its designs in real offshore conditions? I think we all love to sip Martinis on deck ( I prefer mojito) , but yes this is not the way to evaluate a design. ZENCAP ------------- ZENCAP |
Posted By: ZENYACHT
Date Posted: 02 April 2010 at 16:42
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Dear Owners
We have got some interesting posts concerning this issue on the 531/540 subforum under the SPARCRAFT RIGGING PROBLEMS post. ZENCAP ------------- ZENCAP |
Posted By: TAIMA
Date Posted: 02 May 2010 at 15:19
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I am in Italy for bussiness and just saw a nice boat on a local boatshow, a SLY 61 using the same BAMAR furler. They have had no problem after 1 year sailing; but just crossed the Adria twice from Italy to Croatia. They had never blue water on deck ------------- Thomas Pollehne Hanse 630/06 TAIMA |
Posted By: Peter Jervis
Date Posted: 14 November 2010 at 07:53
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Hi All.
Our experiencees with the Furling gear not good also.
After one year Bamar changed the Torque tube. Some of the Bottom screws had sheared. The new Tube had upgraded Screws.
Now, the top screws have started to go! They are still sized at 5mm.
So, I have now removed the tube and put it into the workshop to change the Screws to 8mm.
Bamar have said that they cannot offer a Tube with larger screws than 5mm.
Seems to be a common problem here.
Hopefully when it is all back together, that will be it for a while.
630 No 24 Charliz
------------- Peter |
Posted By: Athina Captain
Date Posted: 28 December 2010 at 13:11
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Met the wonderful people at Bamar. They were surprised that Hanse never told us to contact them since they had a fix for the problems we have been having. Sent it to them and came back as good as new, including an upgrade, as a guarantee job. Great to see that some manufacturers try to solve the problems of their clients. The only thing that leaves me scratching my head is why the local Hanse importer just simply did not tell us to contact Bamar instead of going through them, as were told to do for all guarantee work. Especially since we don't get any answer... Hope all your furler problems are solved this easily |
Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 28 December 2010 at 17:41
Hi, It did not work at all like that in our case!!!!!!! The Bamar agent in Greece was contacted by me directly. Bamar wrote to me directly that they do not accept neither the liability nor the claim. Reason : Hanse increased the size(diameter) of the forestay after selecting the Bamar model. The new forestay tensioner has no room inside the furler and it is no more suitable. So they claim that Hanse is responsible. This argument is not valid since they accepted to sell and guarantee the furlers. The local agent and us re-engineered and reworked the furler at our own cost and now the furler has no problems.We increased the size of the holding screws. This could have been done very easy by Bamar before instaltion t no cost. SHAME ON BAMAR. ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: Athina Captain
Date Posted: 04 January 2011 at 23:32
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Well, can't answer why Bamar did not respond to your demand, but it does not make sense since their service was spotless with us after Hanse never responded, and that at the first meeting we had with them, not after many attempts like was your case.
Could it be that being a later model, there were some changes that your boat has? Not saying it's the case, but I am trying to understand why the same company has responded in completely different ways in two separate cases. Then again, you local Hanse dealer is more responsive (or complete lack of) than our local dealer. So I guess it's a case that every boat is treated differently depending where it was bought... |