That Self Tacking JIB
Printed From: myHanse.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing
Forum Description: Hanse Chat about various races, gear setup, sail choices, rig tuning, etc....
URL: https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=3139
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 03:40
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Topic: That Self Tacking JIB
Posted By: lukemi
Subject: That Self Tacking JIB
Date Posted: 02 July 2009 at 16:13
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This past weekend I just finished, or should I say quit, a race. Pretty much every boat beat us (although only 1 of 7 actually finished the race). In my experience, the standard self tacking Jib is of no value in a light wind race. Below 3 knots of wind, my 370 just seems to spin in the water. I noted that other boats in this class all had 140 to 155 % Head Sails. Also, I could not get the angle on the wind that the other boats had (there's 20-30 degrees vs mine 50-60 degree best). My crew was very discouraged with this performance. I had another race planned for August but my crew is muntiney mode. They don't see the sense in trying unless a new head sail is purchased. So the Question: Is there any hope of competing in a race using the standard self tacking JIB? Being a novice racer, I'm not sure what to expect. I know what I'm asking Santa for Xmas but that doesn't help now. Mike
Stella Maris
PS: The only boat to complete was a Beneteau 40. With their full keel every puff of wind pushed them a little closer to the finish (they do not spin like the 370). I'm not sure this is racing (3 hours to finish) but that did give them a light air advantage.
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Replies:
Posted By: Peter-Blake
Date Posted: 02 July 2009 at 16:33
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You will have no chance with a selftacker in winds under 10kts! ------------- Blake 370 
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Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 02 July 2009 at 17:27
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Hi, I don't quit agree! Hanses have a bigger main than the boats with a 140%, so sail area is probably sufficient. A bigger genoa will only increase the penalty if you race under ORC or IRC certificate and will have a disadvantage in normal winds.
Choosing the front sail is crucial: If you regularly sail in very low winds then a special wind seeker could be needed. This sail is hoisted free like a spinnaker but actually is a jib and is made of a ultralight material. The size should be the same as your self tacker. You just roll the self tacker and hoist the wind seeker. With so low wind this is a child's play.
How to steer in these conditions is a challenge! You need lots of practice to keep the boat pointed to the correct direction. It took me several years to learn how to do it. Try to win your crew back and go out to practice. It is very important to feel from which direction the wind puff is going to come and turn the bow to the correct direction and trim the sails before the puff hits. The puff lasts one two minutes and if ready, the boat will start to pic some speed. You use this speed to have control over the rudder to take advantage of the next puff, and so on. Moving is more important than the direction where you go to but of course tactics are always important.
To practice the self tacker is good enough. My suggestion is not to buy anything until the crew learns to love low wind speed racing.
These were just a few stupid thoughts. Everybody past through the same situation as you are experiencing now. ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: Peter-Blake
Date Posted: 02 July 2009 at 19:48
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Sorry panos, i love sailing in strong winds and in low winds too. I have - i think - many years (sailed races since 1978) of experience. All my former boats had no problems in low wind with the right sail. Same with the 370. You need a big upwindsail with overlapping. Otherwise you will loose. The 370 doesnt give you any feedback with the selftacker in low winds. With the big genoa it is totally diffrent! You can feel the diffrence! ------------- Blake 370
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Posted By: CARAMEL
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 08:43
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With my H470 I had to change the selftacker.
The advise of my sailmaker was not only to go for a 108% but certainly for a better quality.
The standard jib is of very poor quality (North...???). It is imposible to get the right shape. The selftacker on the boot of Panos is 3DL-North and that is another story.
Now I have a 108% laminate sail (Maxx Voyager carbon Aramide) and can compete with x-yachts and other fast boats......!!!!!
For upwind sailing I need minimum 6Kn of wind.
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Posted By: Zeester
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 09:55
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Just a ' stupid' question, I suppose you can't run the 108% on the self tacking system? Regards, Ron |
Posted By: Abstinenz
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 09:55
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I agree,
You'll never get the race potential from the std. jib. It's only a 85% jib and the shape is hopeless due to the negative roach. I really understand your crew  A premium selftacker jib of aprox. 98% will add a lot of speed when going upwind and reaching but still you will need more canvas below 8-10 knots of wind and a code zero or a genua is a must. With a laminated ligth genua of 125-130% you'll find that the Hanse goes like a rocket in windspeed below 6 knots. (don't buy a heavy tafetta/dacron covered genua for light wind racing as it will be too heavy to fill) /Steen ------------- Hanse 342#436 |
Posted By: Abstinenz
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 10:06
No you can't. A 100% jib will fill the hole triangle and a 108% will have to be sheeted on it's own traveller aft the mast. You can buy a 95-98% selvtacker jib with a biiig roach but it will then hit your mast and motor ligth every time you tack. The biiig roach has it's avantage when reaching. /Steen ------------- Hanse 342#436 |
Zeester wrote:Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 20:20
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Hi,
@PB: The quality of the sail is extremely important. I am talking about a 3DL selftacker with vertical battens. White sails are not worth a penny. IMHO the sail area is enough, but a heavy sail cannot be trimmed properly.
With a 140% genua you will be required to reef at 15-16 knots-NOT GOOD.
My experience with my Hanse is :
0-4 knots (true) wind seeker 100% + unreefed main
4-18 selftacker 88% + unreefed main
18+ selftacker+1/2 reefs.
all above for beating
we also use a code 0/1 for 60 to 100-120 degrees and
an asymmetric spinnaker for 120 to 160 up to 20-22 knots (true)
else we use the selftacker.
Important: we always use an "inhauler" to keep the selftacker a few cm to the centerline on closehauled, and a barber hauler to open the selftacker in more open courses.
In our boat it is almost impossible to change front sails due to their size and weight. ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 05 July 2009 at 00:20
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I just added a used recut #2 mylar genoa 155 (there is no penalty to my PHRF rating for a 155 or lower). While it is not strictly a light air sail, it's large area permits it's use in light air and winds to 20K. It's made a world of difference for all points upwind. Much more efficient than my 135. The only downside is that it is slightly too large for the standard genoa track on the 370. I'll either have to cut it down to a 150 or put a longer track on. I'm leaning toward the latter.
------------- Silversailor South Haven, MI USA S/V Legacy 2010 Andrews 28 |
Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 05 July 2009 at 12:08
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Hi Silversailor,
I know nothing about PHRF. In ORCi,IMS and IRC the size of the biggest front sail,the size of the main and the size of the biggest spinnaker/asymmetric determine the certificate value. This is the reason we go for code 0, which counts as a spinnaker (and since its size is smaller than the a. spinnaker we use) and doesn't affect the certificate. If the code 0 counted as front sail, a 140% genoa would be preferred.
------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: lukemi
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 18:13
| A lot of good information provided for this topic. Alan, I noticed that you selected a Mylar Genoa for your use. I'm curious if you have tried this yet. Several people have recommended that I look at a Mylar 140% for my 370. I have also been recommended a composite fiber but they require more special care than Mylar, although less expensive. From what I have heard, a 140% will work on the 370 without need of any modifications. Do you know the Luft and Foot size you used for the 370. There is a used Sail store in Annapolis, Bacon Associates, that says they have over 14,000 used sails in stock. I doubt they would have anything directly for the Hanse but they may have something close. They match sails by Luft and Foot dimensions. |
Posted By: Abstinenz
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 08:35
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Lukemi,
Mylar is the film that covers what's inside the sail. It is what's inside that matters. Pentex (i.e. dacron), kevlar, carbon etc.etc. A modern composite sail for general use does not need more carefull treatment than just a sun cover if it's stays on the furler for a longer time. You can also fold it as a normal dacron sail. /Steen ------------- Hanse 342#436 |
Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 14 July 2009 at 02:02
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Let me see if I can answer some questions. 1. PHRF: all jibs/genoas 155 and below are treated the same. So there was no change in my rating when I added a 135 (for general cruising in areas where there is lots of light air) and the latest 155. However a 156 would have added penalty points to my rating. Same with the sprit. 12" or less doesn't efect your rating. Above 12", will add penalty points. 2. The 155 is mylar over kevlar. It's a used sail that was recut for my boat. Frankly, it's a little large for my track. I use it only when racing and can fly it up to 20K. This is important to me since it's difficult to change sails on Hanses while sailing. ------------- Silversailor South Haven, MI USA S/V Legacy 2010 Andrews 28 |
Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 14 July 2009 at 19:31
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Hi, @silversailor : This sounds like you already paid the penalty for the 155% genoa. The only way to win any light wind race is to get also the benefit: Racing with a 155% is the only way to win. We race under IRC and the biggest front sail you have on board counts. Completely different situation. ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: bjoris
Date Posted: 29 July 2009 at 21:24
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I experienced the same as you, last year. In light airs it was so frustrating... Well, now I finally got my new laminat 108% headseil (HPC Granseil) and on the first and by now only regatta with the new sail we finnished second, and got 3. pl after the LYS system. With the selftacker we always ended up last or second to last, even in lots of wind. This regatta with the new sail did give us up to 20 knots of wind so it is not just in light conditions this is gives more speed and heads higher... You need a better headsail, simpel as that... ------------- H350#118 www.bjoris.blogspot.com |
Posted By: coriolis2
Date Posted: 21 August 2009 at 07:43
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We are using a 142% ACL-PEN Genua, although rather heavy compared to Mylar it is far more durable and is performing ok up to 14 kn app.
Will reef the main up to 16kn after which we will change to the HA
Will change out the main and HA also for ACL-PEN in the next years as the standard sails are abolutely NOT performing to the boats potential.
Pictures taken during the Borkum-Delfzijl race this spring. Genua made made by Q-sails Turkey (value for money)
Regards, Rob
   ------------- "Coriolis" H350 #045 (ex Waarschip 570 #? 1987/1992, ex Waarschip 28LD #7 1994/2007) |
Posted By: Phoebus
Date Posted: 04 March 2010 at 12:45
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The selftacker in my opinion is not a suitable sail except for winds12-16 Knots. The 140% that I made and use for 2 years, realized that gives you more speed but loose a lot in Angle because we have huge spreaders and even with barbers you cannot shape your sail for going 38-40 degrees Upwind. Dissanvantage of 140% is that gives you more penantly. My conclusion after racing 3 years with my hanse400 are: 1) I think the 107%-108% is a must for our boats. The only problem is the if you use a 108% you have to add on the new travelers inside the spreders.
2) The problem with the 108% is for winds 1-5 knots because our boats are heavy...so the solusion for that is
3) a Code 0 is a must because is two times bigger than the 108% and is not givving us penalty as it is counted as a spinaker...
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Posted By: petdro
Date Posted: 08 March 2010 at 09:49
No Problem   ------------- Best regards Salute H405#556 |
Posted By: Peter-Blake
Date Posted: 08 March 2010 at 11:54
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Interesting solution petdro. How did you reinforce the deck under the rail, as it is positoned on the halyardcover? ------------- Blake 370
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Posted By: petdro
Date Posted: 08 March 2010 at 14:11
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@Blake,
the space under the lid has been applied, then drilled the sandwich
the holes again closed and fastened with long screws lid and deck. ------------- Best regards Salute H405#556 |