461 Windlass Tips
Printed From: myHanse.com
Category: Hints & Tips
Forum Name: 461 / 470
Forum Description: 461 / 470 Hints and Tips
URL: https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=765
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 03:41
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 461 Windlass Tips
Posted By: John Allison
Subject: 461 Windlass Tips
Date Posted: 10 September 2006 at 07:51
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Hi, Thanks to Keith Goodhall for his direction to the 470 windlass pictures on the 470 thread. Unlike the 470 - the 461 and 531 have their windlasses facing forward. The windlass itslef has to offset to stb in the anchor locker to allow the anchor and launcher to be folded back in alongside. It means when the launcher is deployed and in use, the chain on both models is led inboard and then redirected via a floor mounted roller over to the stb placed windlass on the anchor locker floor. The hawse pipe hole from the windlass is also on the windlass stb side. We've found: 1. The change in direction of the chain gives just enough added friction when hauling in the anchor up, to cause clutch slippage when any pressure is added by wind or waves. A quick pull by hand of the chain with the windlass running usally overcomes the friction and gets it working again - but I'm worried about loosing a digit or two when doing this. 2. The stb position of the windlass means the chain piles right into the corner of the chain locker below. This increases the risk of the chain piling up against the side and rear of the chain locker, and backing up into the hawse pipe hole. When that happens it jams the windlass until you can get your arm somehow below the anchor locker floor to redistribute the chain. 3. The extreme sbd position of the windlass makes it impossible to fit or use a good add on like the Lewmar manual recovery unit. This is a manual feature allowing you to crank up the windlass by hand in the event of an electrical failure. BUT it can only be added to the stb side of the windlass - and there is no room to do so. Hanse must be be aware of the anchor raising issues on the 461 and 531 as one can see they've come up with an alternate position for the windlass on the 470. The pictures on the 470 messages show it is set up facing aft, but more on the centre line of the boat, and far enough forward to get ones arm under the front of the anchor locker floor to clear out any clocked chain. Trouble is - to do this they have to take the chain aft - then round yet another deck mounted roller - and lead if back forward to the windlass. The chain turns almost 360 degrees on that roller - so not sure that going to have a positive effect with the added friction. Anyway - we've changed ours as follows and just completed it this morning. 1. Moved windlass more towards centreline - still facing forward. This has also positioned it closer to the bow, but should help prevent chain back up into the hawse pipe hole. We've got an inspection port cut into the anchor locker floor - just in case we need access to the chain underneath to free any jams. 2. We've added a Lewmar Manual Recovery unit. Having the windlass closer to the centre gave us space to do this. It means we are no longer totally reliance on the electricity, but more important it allows me to supplement the electrical power when hoisting the anchor and overcome any friction issues caused by the rollers. 3. Even though the windlass is more central - we've had to extend and re-shape the manual recovery handle so we can use it standing up. Hope you can see it all clearly from this picture, and this info helps others facing same issues.
Thanks again Keith for the redirection ot the 470 set up. Cheers JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Replies:
Posted By: keith goodall
Date Posted: 11 September 2006 at 10:47
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John good to see what you have done to modify the anchoring system. Quite clearly Hanse have recognised there has been a problem with at least the 461 and the 531. And I suppose that given the new design inherent in the retractable anchoring system it is not suprising that design modifications will be implemented as practical problems are identified by owners. What I would suggest to Hanse though is that if design modifications like this are made why not use this site (or www.hanseyachts.de for that matter) to notify owners of improvments that have been made and to advise where details of such design modification are available so that existing owners can arrange to make their own changes if they see the need. This then creates a win win situation - Hanse get good PR and as owners we get the opportunity to pick up design improvements if we want to.
Cheers 
Keith Goodall Savarna 531/36 |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 13 September 2006 at 05:24
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Hi Keith, Yes, I'd second that idea of having a section on this or another site where ongoing modifications 'approved' by Hanse (eg the cover plate on the fuel tank vent for the 461) can be listed for all to see. If anyone from Hanse is reading this - what about it? Cheers JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: colincooper
Date Posted: 13 September 2006 at 06:33
Can't find this on the board. What is it? Is it only needed on the 461? Thanks. ------------- Colin (owner of Hilde - a 370) |
John Allison wrote:Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 16 September 2006 at 08:42
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Hi Colin, Suspect Hanse now add it as standard - but did not do so early on. Our 461 fuel tank vent is placed on the port side of transom - high up just where any deck water flows over the stern. Ours (boat no 7) had a simple flush vent which when powering to windward with lots of water running aft - sucked seawater into the tank. A simple plastimo plastic cover plate stopped it happening again - but it was a pain at the time and possibly damamged our injectors / pump. JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 27 September 2006 at 14:11
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Add on to 470 Windlass Position................ Whilst those early photos of the 470 showed Hanse fitting a rear facing windlass forward in the anchor locker - I can only assume it did result in friction issues. The 470 I visited in Southampton a week back was not rear facing - it had the same axis and position as the 461. Ergo - my notes on what we did with our 461 could also be considered by 470 owners. JOHN
------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: tobo
Date Posted: 27 September 2006 at 18:28
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After my experiences Hanse does not read this forum. They still think that their boats sell by themselves. Just look at their homepage. The last entry in the news section is from the 16th of August !!
------------- Thomi |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 28 September 2006 at 08:32
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What experience? Snide comments like this are I think unwarrented. You can't have seen that Hanse UK (the dealer who makes this site available at no cost to you or me) do also contribute to the forums. I'd like them to contribute more - but they invariably respond they built it for us to use - not them. But think about it, and what do you really expect by way of journalism in the news side this current month - knowing they've all been really busy with the Southampton Boat Show in August / September? JOHN
------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 29 September 2006 at 01:04
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Sorry Tobo - busy bad day. JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: tobo
Date Posted: 29 September 2006 at 17:30
You may have misunderstood the address of my critics. I was talking of the original German Hanse Website. And part of my remarks may also come from the disappoinment of Hanse's way towards cheaper yachts and saying "we are the quality people of yachting". On the other hand the 470 has Lewmar instead of Harken, wires instead rods and I'm sure there are a few more hidden details that makes the boat 20.000 Euros cheaper than the 461. In my opinion they didn't analyse the target customer and I'm just about sure that people buying a yacht like the 470 shouldn't be fooled, because it's not their first boat and they have more experiences of what a boat is worth. I might be wrong, but I can tell you more when I have seen her in Genoa. ------------- Thomi |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 01 October 2006 at 13:30
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Hi Tobo, Yes - I did get misinterpret your message and for a second time, I apologies for my tight ass reply earlier. Agree 100% with the point you've clarified - I'd certainly prefer Hanse to keep on the quality track as opposed to the opposite. Cheers JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 02 October 2006 at 20:18
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Hey guys i keep reading all your comments with interest and keep trying to weigh it all up. I take the point that the 470 is cheaper, but at the end of the day is it fair to say, yes they've saved something on the winches and maybe even the AP etc, but is there that much difference btw the lewmars and the Harkens? The helms seats are coming and the jury is out on how adequate they’ll be, but lets wait and see. The circulation in the aft cabins, again lets see if in production this is remedied. The excess space down below - can retro fit some hand holds etc, (Charlie from Largs is). And finally the nav table is fairly average, but again they are working on solutions and options here too. Which leaves the assumption that the hull, mast, sail, build quality on joints, backing plates etc are all the same as the other Hanse that are loved and appreciated. So are we being overly unfair that prehaps the production method is allowing savings to be passed on to the sailors and this boat is as strong, well constructed, quick in the water and as safe as the others. Or am I being daft!!! Keep up the debate, you are giving me much food for thought as I try decide what to buy!! Regards Brad |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 09:22
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Hi Brad,
I think you've summed up the obvious visible differences and I'm sure the 470 is just as safe, fast and will be as well loved by its owners. It is a good looking yacht.
Lets hope it proves to be equally as popular as the 461.
Cheers
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: Terry
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 09:29
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Brad I could not agree more ,I am in the same position.Fighting with myself on which one to go for ,there is so much I like on the 400 then I think I should wait and get the 430,which looks like delayed,!!??and then to top it off went on board (charlies)470 and apart from the Helms seats and a couple of things I wld like,I feel I should stop messing and get that.After chartering the 531 a couple of weeks ago Despite being fantastic I know thats too much for me.So please keep discussing.
Terry
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Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 09:37
| Fair enough, so basically what everyone is debating is some of the finer details that might influence the popularity and maybe even resale’s but not the psychical credentials of the yacht. It is funny as some days I’m convinced my mind is made up but on others I read something that plants a seed of doubt, just trying to place levels of importance on all aspects and the first consideration is, does the 470 stack up as a safe, capable passage making vessel (bearing in mind the helm, nav desk, hand holds and circulation are sort or acceptable)?? Thoughts? Anything else I should place high priority on?? |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 11:03
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Storage.
We only sail for four months at a time and have to say that whilst we've still got lots of empty lockers down below we find on the 461 we are challenged for 'bulk' storage space. Space accessible from deck level and able to take wet or mucky stuff.
We may be an exception, but under passage we carry a full sized spinnaker plus a Code 0 in big man sized bags, our deflated 3.4M Zodiac, the passerell, BBQ, plus assorted boathooks, tools, hoses and bits, 4 x 10 litre spare fuel containers, 2 x large deflated fenders, spare cordage, and 8 big fenders.
At present (with a squeeze) it all goes into the 461 lazarette.
When we believe we'll be changing headsails several times a day - we'll often wedge the spinnaker or the code 0 into the anchor well or strap it to the cabin top as we find this more efficient than removing / repacking the lazarette.
We also carry under cockpit seats a 6 man liferaft, assorted safety bits, grab bag, electrical lines and connections, 3 bottles of gas, about 8 hefty mooring lines.
We finally store on the pushpit 2 x horseshoes, 8HP outboard, inflatable dan-buoy pack.
Down below we've no issues and also strap 2 folding bikes plus all cockpit cushions on the topsides of the aft cabin lockers. OH - we store our second anchor plus outboard fuel tank in the anchor well.
In summary you'll be able to do much the same on the 470 - except you may find a challenge with lazarette, pushpit, and underseat volume.
I suggest if Hanse have not finalised deck box / seat designs I'd be asking them to try and make them as big as is possible whilst still looking good. One innovation they could add is seperate access / location for a liferaft? Also well worth taking time to plan and fit out your lazarette with shelving - its just so much more efficient than the 'pile it in' method we've adopted.
Hope this helps.
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 12:23
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Hey, Yeah very valid points, I’ll be on to them asking for updates, and seeing the guys from Hamble in a couple of weeks. Hope it’s not too late!! The storage issue is one of the reasons I was interested in the Oceanis 50, you get a lot of ‘physical’ boat for your money there, i.e. an extra metre and that is mostly the forward sail locker that would swallow most of what you mention, its deep and well spaced. I guess the whole issue of storage is very much a personal decision, so long as the foundation of what you are buying, the hull mast and sails are all up to the standard required, and in the case of the 470, this seems like a pretty good price for the hull, mast and sails of this reputation. Would anyone disagree. In my case, it is just the two of us and we’d expect guests on the coastal cruising etc which leaves the aft port cabin to stock up. But a sail locker would be great!! |
Posted By: Alain & Anne
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 13:17
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Hi guys, At first let's try it.... but 30000 euros that's a lot of money and the difference is somewhere. Having use Harken gears for more than a decade and some 15000 milles on my own boat I can say that there are strong and reliable and at the end of the day a good investment! When sailing other boats with different makes I could not put Lewmar on the top; but it is not statistic, just my own experience. When I sailed the 461 I did not find the helm "very heavy". In fact the double helm with rack and pignon and without clutch gives a bit of inertia but manageable. The point is that a wire system is by construction less reliable but cheaper: and the question is how many 470 will sail blue water? About the Béneteau, I sailed an Oceanis 523 from France to Croatia last may. Big but heavy boat! That's an other story! Alain ------------- UHAMBO 430e#004 White hull-teck deck-Yanmar 55hp-long range cruising OCC Our blog: www.uhambo.fr |
Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 13:32
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Hi Alain, So are you suggesting the 470 is not suitable for blue water at all?? My dilemma is that whatever I buy I have to get it back to On the steering, again my point is that surely this (even with the Harken dif) can’t account for the 30k difference?? Clearly these little bits add up but I would have guessed is still some way off accounting for the discount. Cheers |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 14:50
Hi Brad,
I think we all know any boat of this size can handle the blue water bit with few issues - but some of that lower price might just be that Hanse now buy / use epoxy in greater volume than ever before - or maybe the new factory is overall cheaper to run?
Also, no doubts about this, epoxy build reduces construction time by as much as 20%! That's not just manpower - but extends to overall capital costs also.
So maybe on the 461 they did not factor in all the savings - but on the 470 they are?
Cheers
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 15:20
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Cool, thanks guys, this is really helpful, sometimes it is nice to have confirmation of your suspisions, but also have some views challenged.
Prehaps the real saving is Hanse no longer have sales staff and are benefiting from all you guys selling their boats for them!!!
 Cheers
Brad
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Posted By: Alain & Anne
Date Posted: 03 October 2006 at 17:20
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John, you are absolutly right about cost saving and the new production plant has something to do with the 30k€. Of course any boat of any size can sail bluewater. I sailed atalntic twice in the early 80ties (last century) on a 37ft with sextant clock and table and no gps, no blu, a pair of good lewmar (!) winches and good sails. I suggested that the 470 is a marketing evolution of the 461. The quick decision to delay the 430 and to push the 470 and 540 in production was certainly based on that. The cost saving on gears and equipement is probably around 10k€, the new deck has a more suitable design for moulding (guess where the cokpit lazarettes are gone!) which could have killed hours of workmanship and you get the new price: The very good thing is that hull, rig, sails are the same and the boat is said as a bit better balanced in term of weight of equipement, and you get it for a lower price!! Hanse could have keep the difference to improve their balance sheet!! I was ready to sign for a 461 and now I will wait for a real try of the 470!! Cheers Alain ------------- UHAMBO 430e#004 White hull-teck deck-Yanmar 55hp-long range cruising OCC Our blog: www.uhambo.fr |
Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 06 November 2006 at 12:18
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Hi Alain,
Re your last note - seems the 470 sails are cross cuts and not D cuts as provided with most 461's.
I see there are new neaw D cts for sale eslewhere on the site - might be a good way to increase quality and reduce costs...........
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: Brad McMaster
Date Posted: 06 November 2006 at 12:27
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Hey guys, the D cuts norlams are a circa £5k-£6k option, so back to the previous points about price reductions, there in lies another hefty difference.
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Posted By: Lolo
Date Posted: 11 December 2006 at 21:21
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Hi John
i'm new in the forum that I just discovered
I'm owner of the 461#35 since february 2005
I read a lot of remarks ...very interesting (not always easy for me in english...)
I 'll prepared some pictures of modifications I made asap
Best regards and good wind
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Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 12 December 2006 at 17:04
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Bonjour Lolo,
We got ours early 2005 also so guess the boats are almost twins!
Look forward to seeing some of your modifications - et Bon Noel!
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: Lolo
Date Posted: 13 December 2006 at 21:19
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hi john
thanks for quick reply
my 461 is #35 and your?
where is your boat?
what yr plan for 2007
please could yu tell me if your modification for anchor is good or have ou still some problems with the chain?
rgds
Lolo
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Posted By: John Allison
Date Posted: 14 December 2006 at 08:17
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Hi Lolo,
Ours was only hull #7 - so they must have had a busy production in that year end if yours was #35.
Our boat is currently in Turkey - Kemer Park Marina on Med coast.
Our plans for 2007 are on our blog - http://www.yotblog.com/swagman - www.yotblog.com/swagman .
And the modifications we made to the anchor system seem to work fine!
Regards
JOHN ------------- No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had! |
Posted By: tobo
Date Posted: 29 December 2006 at 11:26
 As I don't want the foldable achorage system on my 470, I thought of using the free space of the achorbox for sail (gennaker) storage and will ask my dealer to make a separation and make it waterproof. Further on I asked wether the windlass can be supplied with a rope drum to pull in mooring lines in difficult harbour conditions or a second anchor on a line. Accoring to Hanse their windlass cannot take a addional rope drum on the opposite side. As I don't have take the original windlass I was looking around for alternatives and found the Quick Eagle 1400 a very good solution ( http://www.quickitaly.com - www.quickitaly.com ). The gypsy and the drum can be used separately (by opening the brake). They also have a very neat wired remote control with a display for chaincounter. I've never seen pictures of 461/470 foredecks without the foldable achor and I wonder what you guys have installed. ------------- Thomi |
Posted By: CARAMEL
Date Posted: 29 December 2006 at 14:16
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Hi Tobo,
I just want to say that I ordered my 470 also without foldable anchor ( for the same reason).
I also haven't seen any pictures.
On other models like 370/400 the anchorsysthem has a bowsprit and that's somethinh I like to have !!
Best regards
Marc
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Posted By: Alain & Anne
Date Posted: 30 December 2006 at 12:17
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Hi guys We also ordered our 430 without foldable anchor. We've been told that the the anchorsystem has a bowsprit. Hope we'l know a bit more about the gears at Düsseldorf. Regards Alain ------------- UHAMBO 430e#004 White hull-teck deck-Yanmar 55hp-long range cruising OCC Our blog: www.uhambo.fr |
Posted By: tobo
Date Posted: 30 December 2006 at 21:04
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Hi Alain
Did you really order a 430 or is this a typing mistake? How can you order a yacht that doesn't even exist nor you haven't sailed?
Thomas ------------- Thomi |
Posted By: Alain & Anne
Date Posted: 30 December 2006 at 23:53
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Hi Thomas, That's a good point: it is not a mistake and I signed for a yacht I have not seen nor sailed!! My order has to be confirmed in Düsseldorf in january. If it doesn't exist the order would not be valid any longer!!! Alain ------------- UHAMBO 430e#004 White hull-teck deck-Yanmar 55hp-long range cruising OCC Our blog: www.uhambo.fr |
Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 20:04
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Alain, You are not alone. In August 2005 I ordered my 370 without seeing it or sailing it. I have seen and sailed a new 342 only. I wasn't disappointed when she arrived (the 1st in N. America). I'm sure your 430 will be as rewarding. Enjoy all the anticipation!
------------- Silversailor South Haven, MI USA S/V Legacy 2010 Andrews 28 |
Posted By: Alain & Anne
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 21:32
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Thank you Silver Sailor and Happy New Year. In fact I have no doubt about the existence of the 430! Th point is not what but when!!! Alain ------------- UHAMBO 430e#004 White hull-teck deck-Yanmar 55hp-long range cruising OCC Our blog: www.uhambo.fr |