Looking to buy a boat! Lots of questions.
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Topic: Looking to buy a boat! Lots of questions.
Posted By: travalab
Subject: Looking to buy a boat! Lots of questions.
Date Posted: 07 October 2013 at 02:13
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Ok so first I have never sailed. I have no grand illusions to get a boat next week and B line it across the North Atlantic. My fiancé and I have signed up for sailing lessons so that's where we'll start. We figure after we get somewhat proficient we would like to do some coastal trips. The idea of the boat would be almost a second home for weekends some extended stays, but as I said mostly local day or two trips when we actually leave the dock, at least to start with. After taking the initial course, is it far fetched to think I could hire someone and have them teach me how to sail on my boat? Or is the transition from beginner course to a 41ft boat to much? I guess that wraps up my first question, I'll leave it at that for now. Thanks in advance! PS. We are also looking at used boats so that is an option we are actively pursuing. I know I will get a lot of advice to go with a used boat at first for many reasons, but for the purpose of this discussion I'm sticking with the 415. Travis
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Replies:
Posted By: h315idra
Date Posted: 07 October 2013 at 06:51
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My suggestion: First: a good sailing school on sailing dinghy Second: start with a boat rental to realize problems and benefits of each boat size. Sure, you are startin' something beautiful!  ------------- Alessandro Camerini 315#526 Marina di Salivoli, Piombino ITALY |
Posted By: Jesterjon
Date Posted: 07 October 2013 at 07:45
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Travis, In the UK we have the RYA sail training scheme starting with the competent crew course. I would recommend before setting off on your own boat going on the first two levels, I.e. The competent crew course and the Day skipper course. Both these courses will teach you the fundamentals to get you going and teach you the art of navigation. I would read as many back issues of a decent sailing magazine as you can get which will help you learn the language of sailing and the techniques used by others. Twelve months worth of the UK magazine Yachting Monthly would be ok. Many uk sailing schools will let you charter a skipper to train you on your own boat however I would start on a sail training boat as you cannot get too much experience on different boats. To become better at sailing and sail setting join a local sailing club and crew for anyone who will have you you will pick up the skill by experience which for this dark art is the only way. Jon. ------------- Jonathon. |
Posted By: Andrew
Date Posted: 07 October 2013 at 08:06
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I think it is quite reasonable to start looking for a yacht now, and in the mean time charter for a couple of weeks to get an idea of what you would like, also at the same time, start one of the training courses. It took me two years to find my beauty. Don't rush into it. You will know when you have found the right one. A relatively new second hand boat is better than a new one, because it has been debuged. Andrew
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Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 07 October 2013 at 14:14
| Great advice! I have been doing as much reading as possible. And we are doing the beginner class which for us would be a 5 week course. Then after some practice and a little time hopefully early spring we are taking another 5 week advanced course. Around that time is when we would start putting together an order, if everything goes well. Does this seem like a reasonable time frame? |
Posted By: Rubato
Date Posted: 07 October 2013 at 19:17
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Congrats on the adventure that you're embarking on.... Sailing, being on the water and discovering new things is always a joy. The approach you're taking is a good one. The only thing I'd suggest, as some mentioned above, is to charter a boat a few times so you understand what works for you.... I was as enthusiastic as you and bought my first boat about 2 years after the lessons. During that time, gaining experience and understanding what kind of cruising I wanted to do along with what boat features I valued was very helpful. Oh, and I also started racing on other people's boats too which helped with the experience side of things..... ------------- Steve Hanse 400e, #168 |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 07 October 2013 at 19:31
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The school I'm planning on taking the lessons at has boats of all sizes up to 45ft I believe. I would definitely take those out a number if times to see what kind of setup works best for me. On a side note what's up with the colored hulls? My boat would be in New England almost exclusively for the first few years at least, is fading gel coat really that big of a problem, should I just forget it and go with a white hull? Does a painted hull hold up any better? |
Posted By: Mark&Catherine
Date Posted: 08 October 2013 at 03:26
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Why not get it wrapped? That way you get the colour and your gelcoat is protected ------------- 385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine |
Posted By: Rubato
Date Posted: 08 October 2013 at 18:24
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Sailboat rap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02HTkszOVlI" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02HTkszOVlI :) Travis. Nothing wrong with a coloured hull but just know if anyone (broker) tells you that coloured gel (light or dark) or paint is as easy to keep shiny new as a white hull tell them they're full of winch lube.... you notice the oxidization on coloured hulls much more than white ones. Steve ------------- Steve Hanse 400e, #168 |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 08 October 2013 at 19:42
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Yeah that's what I've been reading. I know it varies but how long before a shinny new blue boat doesn't look so shinny or so new anymore? One season? A few years? 10 years? I'm at work now but I'll check out that video in a little while. Thanks! |
Posted By: Rubato
Date Posted: 09 October 2013 at 19:16
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I can speak to the light blue hull - looked great for about 4 years. I still do the cut polish and wax every year but at this point (7yrs) the shine only lasts a few months... ------------- Steve Hanse 400e, #168 |
Posted By: gizmo
Date Posted: 09 October 2013 at 20:05
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Hi Like Rubato I can confirm that a coloured hull will last about 5 to 7 years unless you wax and polish it at least twice a year if not 3 times. In what experience do you need to buy a boat! I raced as crew for 3 years prior to buying our 430e and my own boat was the 1st boat I helmed!! I had done 2 handed off shore racing and a number of regattas in the 3 years I crewed as well as round the cans weekend and evening racing. If you crew at your local club you will gain a lot of experience from your crew mates. Its just my opinion but sailing lessons are like driving lessons as soon as you pass your test some one will show you how to do it properly!! Ken ------------- Ken 430e # 161 UK |
Posted By: Niels
Date Posted: 10 October 2013 at 11:37
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I think your 415 sounds right easy to handle and adapt to your liking after some time. My experience sounds similer, never sailed before but had a dream got suked in by a hire operator for a week in Turkey, then took a Dayskipper theoretical/practical over 7 days and VHF before Turkey hol.,tried another week in Grece loved it, I was 62 then so didn't have time to start small so in late 2009 bought a 470 many a time now I sail singlehanded weather permitting. I wish you all the best and happy sailing ------------- Niels |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 10 October 2013 at 19:24
You're story is encouraging. I'm 29 yrs old so I should have time to move up to a bigger boat somewhere down the road. |
Niels wrote:Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 10 October 2013 at 19:26
| After the 5-7 years when the hull fades, at that point could you paint over the gel coat? Or should you start with painted hull from the beginning? |
Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 11 October 2013 at 08:21
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You can do either or, depends on the price difference between a coloured gel coat to the painted hull. The paint shop will have to strip down all remaining paint to the bare hull,. sand and egalize it and then prepare the surface chemically to build up the new paint.
My guess is that you are better off to start your colorful journey with a coloured gelcoat. In any case your bill will largely exceed 15.000 $ if proper craftmanship is required. There are only a few yards which have the necessary equipment and experience. In the USA I would look to Rhode Island. ------------- Frank |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 11 October 2013 at 18:02
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We will most likely go with a white boat to avoid the hassle all together. We could always get it painted down the road. What are some "must haves" if you plan on living on the boat part time? I assume a generator and the heat/AC. Anything else? Extra fuel and holding tanks? |
Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 12 October 2013 at 07:26
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Live aboard, at anchor or in a marina?
Genset gives you more freedom and you have a back up to charge your starter battery just in case.
Here is my personal list of must haves factory installed:
- Comfort Matresses
- Diesel Heater / Aircon depending on your sailing area
- FCL sails ( insist on a bigger lazy bag or get one made locally )
- Biggest Engine option
- Folding Prop
- Bow Thruster ,either the retractable but if you plan to go to remote areas I would go for a classical one or the Exturn with separate battery
- Anchor Winch with stainless steel chain
- Electrical Winches
- Navigation Package including full electronics
- Simrard Go Free Module
- Comfort and Cruising Packages
- 2000 W Inverter incase you don't have the gennie
- Cockpit fridge ( heard this will be a new option in 2014 )
- Radar if needed in your area ( Boston yes, Caribbean no )
- VHF connected into Simnet
- Active Radar Transponder
- AIS in any case
Things I would add installed / purchased locally which are not available or in inferior quality ex works:
- Bimini and Sprayhood (Dodger)!
- Proper reinforced bow sprit
- Gennaker for improved downwind performance
- Battery Controller
- Remote Controller for Charger
- Decklights
- Cover for Jib / 105% Genoa
- If you are in a remote area change all fuses to resettable ones ( will cost you approx. 300 $ )
- proper fittings to rig life lines
- grab rail in front of both helm stations ( see foto in 385 thread )
- fixed tube to close the stern
- Ipod with the old 32 pin connector ( the new small connector does not fit into the fusion radio )
Holding tank is a good question, the one factory fitted is way to small if you want to spend extended time in port or at anchor. Don't know how the situation in your intended area will be, but in Europe we see increasing regulations on discharging.
Same goes for the the diesel tank, under normal circumstances it should be sufficient. However Genset plus Diesel and everday/night Aircon you might think about a separate tank for the genset. ------------- Frank |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 04:15
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Has anyone dealt with New Wave in Manchester MA? Thoughts? Can I expect to be able to negotiate price? I'm in Boston, do I have any other options for a Hanse dealer? |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 04:17
| Sorry if this is a dumb question but why is radar a must in Boston, and not for the Caribbean? Is the weather more predictable in the Caribbean? |
Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 09:52
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Here are my 2 cts in the Caribbean:
a) Fog is virtually unknown ( its just to warm )
b) Rain Squalls with reduced visibility last only 15 mins
c) You don't sail at night, as most charts are unreliable ( some chart data go back to Sir Francis Drake )
d) Active AIS transponder will give all the info about vessels in your vicinity and also alert them
e) the ones who prefer not to be visible on a radar will avoid you anyway by all means
 I saw on some very luxury and big yachts radars switched on at night, but I think its more a matter to preserve privacy.
Frank
------------- Frank |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 23:23
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Okay the first offer I received from the dealer was 219000$ this includes. The early bird package at the full discount Navigation basic Cruising Comfort Folding prop Elvstrom FCL Sails Dynena halyards Is this a good start? |
Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 06:31
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Check out what the upgrade to navigation plus is! If they are going to charge you the difference plus to basic then it is ok, if they will charge you all the individual line items like autopilot ...... then the deal is mlore sour than sweet.
------------- Frank |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 18:14
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I talked to the salesman he said he'd deduct the price of the sails and halyards from the performance package price. I think he'd do the same for the navigation plus package but I think the only difference between that and the basic is the plus has a bigger screen. I'm pretty sure the basic comes with autopilot. I was going to send the price and options list but I can't from my phone. I'll post it later tonight. I'm hoping to get The upgrade to the performance package Air conditioning Heat And teak decks. For at or under 250,000$ is that a stretch? I'd really prefer 240,000 but that seems unrealalistic. Unless I'm missing something. Also What is the benefit of the upgraded inverter? |
Posted By: pap45
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 19:43
| For 219,000 what options were included other than the packages you listed? Did it include any upgraded flooring, furniture, guardrail exit gates, etc. or was it just the base boat? How much is he charging for transport and commissioning? |
Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 20:05
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Just two hints:
a) if you go South avoid the teak deck, it gets way too hot, even in the Carolinas in summer. Ok though for MA. Teak in the cockpit with a good sized bimini is ok and looks nice ( needs however constant care )
b) pap is right, take the side guard rail exits and buy a fender step to get on board ------------- Frank |
Posted By: Mark&Catherine
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 20:08
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yes, our boats are TALL when alongside, We are short people (5'2" and 5'10"), without the fender step its a struggle. ------------- 385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 21:22
219,400 was the base price of the boat. |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 21:56
      
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Posted By: Andrew
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 06:35
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The 350W inverter is adequate for what I need such as running my laptop,
but I think with a larger yacht you will have more energy hungry equipment such
a microwave etc. So go for the bigger inverter is my advice. |
Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 06:50
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You are right, the diff. between performance basic and plus is only the size of the plotter. I am quite happy with the 8" at the cockpit table. I have the Simrad go free wireless and a tablet at the nav table.
Wow, 717 $ for a Nespresso machine is a rip off  They sell here in Switzerland for 150 $ including a 50$ voucher for a Nespresso capsule order. Also the surcharge for the stainless steel seems to be on the heavy side.------------- Frank |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 13:08
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Yes I agree some things on the list are grossly marked up. 1000$ microwave is crazy. Gives me hope that there is playing room in the prices of the other options. I'm basically going to compile a list of what we want and see what he can do. I'm hoping no more than 240k$. Do you mean the stainless chain? That seems to be the only upgrade from the basic to plus package. |
Posted By: pap45
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 13:54
Posted By: pap45
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 13:56
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If you look in the brochure, it says that with the navigation basic you get 1 multifunction and with the upgrade you get 2 multifunctions. So according to the brochure the difference is the larger plotter and an additional multifunction.
So you might want to clarify with the dealer exactly what you get with the navigation upgrade. Regarding the larger inverter, would it be less expensive to add it later? The only thing I can think of that you might need it for is a microwave, and only if you planned to use the microwave while not connected to shore power. or do others feel that the larger inverter is worth having put in at the time the boat is built?
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Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 15:53
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When Hanse installs the larger inverter ( ready to operate microwave/ Nespresso from the battery bank ) they install a charger/inverter combi ( I think it is either a Victron or a Sterling ). This is only available 385 and upward. The advantage I see is the efficient use of the limted space. I currently have the 350 Victron inverter, so it is tea only and not Nespresso when we are at anchor.
Question is if there is any advantage having two units instead of putting all eggs into one basket with a charger/inverter combi.
Price wise you will end up at almost the same price if you add the inverter later, as Hanse marks up the factory installed equipment considerably. You will need to connect it to the battery bank with good sized cable and find a space in the vicinity, plus install 110/220 volt power outlets. I would not use the existing land line network which powers the hot water boiler, which might empty your batteries if you forget to switch it off.
------------- Frank |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 02:52
| I sent in an options list for a quote, i did not add the inverter but I could later before the final order. I did put the larger engine on there. The total came to 284,084 then with the full early bird discount it goes down to 253,747 I am wondering if they will discount that further, and how much commissioning and bottom paint will cost. |
Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 07:24
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Second thought. I you went for the genset and think about spending time in the Caribbean, then I would go for a water maker for the following reasons. 1) You get a clean fresh water an time you want it 2) Fresh water on the islands is very expensive and sometimes not so clean and safe 3) you can wash and clean your boat with fresh water which is liked by a lot of components mounted ------------- Frank |
Posted By: pap45
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 13:46
| What options did you include for that price? |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 13:58
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Performance package basic Comfort pack basic Convenience basic Bigger engine Entertainment package basic Airconditioning Teak decks Folding prop I think that's everything. |
Posted By: Ilkhanse
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 18:11
| FWIW, we have the smaller engine in our 415 and motor sailed most of the way from CT to Virginia into a pretty strong head sea. We had plenty of power. I'm not sure why you would need the bigger engine. |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 20:37
| The dealer made the same comment about the engine. So we are going to price with the standard engine. |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 21:49
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Well the dealer gave me the quote 300,575$ with all the options I listed earlier sans the bigger engine The boat would be discounted the early bird 30,337$ And on top of that he offered an additional discount of 15,500$ Making the grand total 254,738$ Which includes shipping commissioning and bottom paint Thoughts? |
Posted By: Ilkhanse
Date Posted: 19 October 2013 at 00:42
| That sounds about right. It looks like you are getting about a 15% discount, which is around what we got. Congrats, it is an exciting thing to undertake! The hard part will be concentrating on anything else while you are waiting for the boat to be delivered here. Keep us all posted! |
Posted By: pap45
Date Posted: 20 October 2013 at 19:42
Can you please reconfirm the options you are getting? I added them up and it came to less than 300,575, but maybe I did not add in the commissioning and shipping cost. How much are they charging for commissioning and bottom paint? Thanks for your feedback, it really helps us who are trying to decide if we are getting a fair price where the dealer makes money and yet we save as much as we can.
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Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 20 October 2013 at 20:24
      
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Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 20 October 2013 at 22:55
| Just one note, that price does include all the items in the performance package. I think he forgot the carbon wheels in the price break down, but they are included. |
Posted By: Rubato
Date Posted: 21 October 2013 at 17:25
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Very good price I would say. Congratulations! ------------- Steve Hanse 400e, #168 |
Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 22 October 2013 at 10:53
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Yes, I agree this is a great offer:
Do you want really the teak deck? It is very care intensive and extremely hot in Summer.You will have to spend much time ( or pay somebody ) in order to keep it nice looking. Be aware that it is a very thin teal deck , so regular sanding will not wokr.
I saw some things, which will be very difficult (if not impossile , to fit later:
Go for the side entries in the guard rail, XC 4001, I don't want to miss them.
I would opt for the comfort matresses XN 1100, the differences in comfort is like Boston and Battle Creek.
'Do you really want to skip the bow thruster XG 3102, again an item I don't want to miss.
Depending on your mooring situation I would definitely go for the rub rail XC 9020.
The little inverter XH 2201 is enough to recharge all computer equipment or supply a TV
------------- Frank |
Posted By: Wayne's World
Date Posted: 22 October 2013 at 11:42
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Travalab, I agree with Fendant - teak decks are an ongoing maintanence issue and cost. As the teak in normally glued to the moulded non skid on the deck once you have teak it is very difficult and costly to revert to a non slip finish. We are not having teak on our decks. It is hot in the summer under foot, it is easy to damage and expensive to repair. It looks good at boat shows but unless you put in lots of labour,time and chemicals it can make your boat look tired and old before its time. Again, in most instanced I would fit a bow thruster. Depending on the marina and normal wind conditions you may be able to handle the vessel easily without a thruster but when the weather turns or you use other marinas etc then you will be cursing you didn't fit a thruster. You can always fit one later but you may damage the boat before you get around to it. I know people who are reluctant to take their boat out as they are concerned about getting it back in its berth without damaging their boat, their neighbours boat or causing a divorce. If the dollars are a concern - simple get the bow thruster instead of the teak decks. But, it is your boat and ultimately you should get what you want/need and what makes you happy. ------------- Wayne W Cruising, currently in the Pacific until the end of 2026. |
Posted By: High Time
Date Posted: 22 October 2013 at 18:05
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I agree with pretty much all the above * it's a good price for the package * the standard D2-40 engine is fine and has better fuel consumption than the D2-55 * teak decks are lovely for the first year or two but are a pain to maintain in good condition thereafter * I would recommend a bow thruster; the Quick Swing Thruster as fitted to High Time is pretty good and no problems so far. It is rarely needed but when it is (e.g. berthing in a strong crosswind) it is worth the money. These modern boats have lots of windage in the bow and little grip on the water at low speed * you might also consider saving some money by installing the stereo yourself; all the wires are pre-installed (but hidden). You just need a bit of jigsaw work to make the holes for the speakers and unit. Good luck with your final negotiations. It's a great boat ------------- Roger High Time (415 #038) |
Posted By: Rubato
Date Posted: 22 October 2013 at 18:41
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Definitely get the side gates, XC4001!! ------------- Steve Hanse 400e, #168 |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 24 October 2013 at 03:19
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For financing, what would be considered a reasonable term length? We plan on putting 20% down then maybe another 5-10% at the time of delivery and financing the rest. How long is a typical loan for this kind of boat? Any advice in this area will be greatly appreciated. Thank you. |
Posted By: Rubato
Date Posted: 24 October 2013 at 18:52
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In Canada, some institutions offer marine loans, others do not. Getting a loan is usually easier if you register the boat (ship's registry) as opposed to license it. From what I've seen, payment terms on marine loans are pretty flexible and length of time can be as long as some property (house) loans (e.g. 20 years). However, the U.S. has totally different tax rules (can't believe you buggers get write off the interest on your taxes!) so likely the loan particulars are very different as well. ------------- Steve Hanse 400e, #168 |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 24 October 2013 at 19:28
| I'm thinking what is a reasonable time frame? 10yrs? 15? Another way of explaining what I'm trying to say is... I don't want to pay on a boat for say 10 years and still owe 150,000$ on a 10 yr old boat that is only worth 50,000$ |
Posted By: Rubato
Date Posted: 25 October 2013 at 18:24
Not sure the bank would let you do that anyway. They'll be aware of the typical depreciation rates are. Probably will only let you finance up to a certain percentage too. Clearly, you pay less interest the shorter the loan is. If you can swing the payments, I'd look at something for like 5 years, 10 at the very outside... ------------- Steve Hanse 400e, #168 |
Posted By: travalab
Date Posted: 26 October 2013 at 00:57
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When I did the rough numbers I came up with 75,000$ down and 10yrs. With those numbers we would be able to bank 1000$ per week towards a house, while we stay at her family's house during the really cold months. I figured in the summer we would spend most of our nights on the boat. Then after the 10yrs is up we would have a sizable (for us) chunk of money for a home purchase and the boat would be paid off. But I've been reading a lot of people's opinions and boat loans seem to be frowned upon. My entire thought process was, I would like to do this now while I can get the most enjoyment out of it, I'm 29, getting married next year and kids will be shortly after that. If I don't start now I find it hard to believe I'll have the ambition to start 10 or 15 years from now, where as if we already had the boat it would be easier. We make a decent living but we are definitely working class and now I'm getting the jitters about financing a boat. Sorry for rambling, just thinking out loud. |
Posted By: bovine
Date Posted: 26 October 2013 at 05:20
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Buying and keeping a boat is a very expensive business ,reading your posts surgests the time is not right. Buy second hand for cash no loan and see how you go Cheers Dave |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 26 October 2013 at 07:19
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If you speak to others on this forum you will find that kids actually enhance some peoples sailing experience & should not be regarded as something to avoid on a boat I had my fist proper yacht at 21. Now i am 66 & have 3 boats & i think i enjoy my yachting a lot more than i did then. Personally i would not buy a yacht on the never never. If you are that serious about a boat , get a smaller one & pay for it outright. When you are married you will find bills popping up all over the place & when a boat bill comes in you will begin to regret it ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: Fendant
Date Posted: 26 October 2013 at 07:54
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You have to understand that Europeans are much much more conservative when buying non essential assets with bank loans. Our legal situation is different, when you are unable to serve the monthly interest payments on the mortgage of you house, the bank will at short notice take posession of the house and throw you out. If there are other "luxury" assets the bank will seize them as well as collateral to finance the procedure. As said above buy any boat only with free surplus cash reserves available, if you don't have anough for a new boat, get something decent on the 2nd market, or look at the charter market. If it is just for fun you might even look at a timeshare solution as offered by Sunsail/Moorings. The latter also gives you the opportunity to explore different locations/areas.Owning a boat is expensive! It is not like owning a solid build house, you will need to invest regularly in maintenance, repair and improvement. If you don't have a solid experience you will have to fund the risk that something breaks, Considering parts be aware that anything "nautic" costs 10 times more than what you buy at home depot. Living on board with a family is like living permanently in a mobile home, you will sooner or later miss some amenities found in a house.
------------- Frank |