Removing rudder
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Forum Name: 400
Forum Description: 400 Hints, Tips and News
URL: https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8667
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Topic: Removing rudder
Posted By: Sailingjack
Subject: Removing rudder
Date Posted: 12 October 2014 at 17:37
 Hello all,I want to lower my rudder in order to check the bearings and rudder shaft. I assumed that the black ring in picture will hold the rudder up, so I removed all(?) three set screws. The ring is now loose, but moves only a few millimeters up and rotates only abt. 5 degrees. What am I missing here? Any advice appreciated. ------------- Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara |
Replies:
Posted By: Graham342
Date Posted: 12 October 2014 at 19:34
Posted By: Sailingjack
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 13:37
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Yep, I quess that's the way to go. But before that I will once again check that all fasteners are removed, don't want to break anything. ------------- Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara |
Posted By: franko
Date Posted: 14 October 2014 at 09:13
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Hi Sailingjack, On my 341 it is only those three grub screws defying gravity. Maybe just a tight fit in the bearings. I've had my rudder off twice. Regards F.
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Posted By: panos
Date Posted: 14 October 2014 at 16:55
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The rudder îs actualy floating so that when the boat is in the water there is small chance to lose it since it is pushing up against the lower bearing. ------------- Panos Hanse 630e - selling her - |
Posted By: Sailingjack
Date Posted: 23 October 2014 at 11:57
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Thank you Gents for your comments. You were right, it took some light tapping with a hammer to get the ring loose, bearings were a tight fit and the rudder is floating in water and chafing against the hull. The boat is on the hard now and I managed to lower the rudder a few centimeters in order to check rudder shaft condition. Didn't need to loosen or remove any steering link, wire or chain. Pics: Here the ring is lifted. Surprisingly not a groove in the shaft for the set screws to reach, just friction on a smooth shaft.  Here the rudder lowered. No corrosion, thanks to low salt Baltic Sea water. Maybe I attach a piece of stainless steel plate to hull in order to protect it against wear.  ------------- Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara |
Posted By: sulutime
Date Posted: 23 October 2014 at 12:08
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Hi Sailingjack, I have a 400 from 2006, so there are some differences, but your rudder looks awfully misaligned with the hull line to me. Mine has the top side parallel to the hull and the shaft is at a right angle with the top. The ruder never, in any condition touches the hull, and I honestly believe it shouldn't. ------------- Fabrizio H400e#127 Roma ITALY |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 23 October 2014 at 18:42
Why stainless? surely your rudder shaft is aluminium ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Sailingjack wrote:Posted By: iemand
Date Posted: 24 October 2014 at 14:38
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Contact to JEFA is the best solution! ------------- Hanse 312 MJ 2004 - Hanse 370e MJ 2007 |
Posted By: Johan Hackman
Date Posted: 24 October 2014 at 15:51
You might find this video interesting. I filmed it a few years ago to show the buoyancy of my rudder. Before I tried this I thought the rudder would disappear under the boat if I removed the locking screws. Johan -------------  http://www.johanhackman.se" rel="nofollow - http://www.johanhackman.se |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 24 October 2014 at 16:30
Johan You have to admit that a video of your face if your rudder had sunk to the bottom would have been a picture  ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: Johan Hackman
Date Posted: 24 October 2014 at 16:46
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I would probably look a bit disappointed. I admit that. Johan ------------- http://www.johanhackman.se" rel="nofollow - http://www.johanhackman.se |
Posted By: Mike400
Date Posted: 24 October 2014 at 19:59
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Hello everyone, I'm new to this forum (hmm2011) .... anyway, this is my first post. Nice @Sailingjack - we also have a 400 # 807 with the same mark in the hull, the rudder is pushed up against the hull as you know now, I have fixed this for 3 seasons with epoxy filler, but through Hanse in Dragör Dk got a spacer ring to be placed on the rudder stock between rudder and hull. I will hire a shipyard that fix this next year. Contact your dealer he can fix this ring to you too. We are 2 Hanse 400 owners here in southern Sweden, which had the same problem. Want to take this opportunity to give Scandinavian Yacht Center Dragør praise for all the help with this and our other guarantee measures. super happy:-). Well done Morten. happy sailing Mike   ------------- Regards Mike H400 S/Y "Mystique" |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 24 October 2014 at 20:49
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If the ring is anything like the one I have you do not need anyone to fit it. It is in 2 halves with a couple of bolts & takes minutes to fit. If it slips on the shaft then the rudder can ride up. Have you checked that you do not already have one & that it has not slipped Jefra make standard sizes so should be easy to obtain ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: Sailingjack
Date Posted: 28 October 2014 at 16:24
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So I definately need to find a spacer/sleeve/ring (whatever it is called) between the rudder plate and the low bearing to prevent the rudder from chafing the hull. Preferably in two halves for an easy installation. Will contact Jefa next. ------------- Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 28 October 2014 at 20:44
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The ring on my boat is not next to the rudder, it is just below the top bearing ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: franko
Date Posted: 28 October 2014 at 20:49
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Hi, Surely you just need to lower the rudder a few millimetres to increase the clearance between rudder upper edge and your hull. That is to say re-position the ring with the three grub-screws a few millimetres higher on the rudder stock. Or . . . am I missing something ? It's getting late and I haven't had a whisky yet tonight ;-) F. |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 29 October 2014 at 05:40
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The ring beneath the top bearing stops the rudder riding upwards. If one cannot lower the rudder enough then the top ring has to be re located as well. If you only move the top ring up then there is nothing to stop the rudder floating up. You need something to stop that happening, hence the ring under the top bearing. So the position of the rudder is dictated by the rings above & below the top bearing ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: Mike400
Date Posted: 30 October 2014 at 06:47
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Right - found info below from jefa.com - the best is that you do not need to dismount the rudder completely just drop it down a little bit and mount the "missing" ring;)) i think, i try to do it by myself, after that i can call me a handy man or I need to call 112 Locking rings: Locking rings are made of anodised seawater resistant aluminium 6082 (AlMgSI1) and contain stainless steel set screws to achieve a perfect locking on the shaft. Its advisable to pre-drill the rudder shaft a couple of millimetres for the best security. Locking rings are used above the top bearing to prevent the rudder from sliding out of the vessel. Locking rings can also be used underneath the top bearing to prevent a light rudder from floating up. Between a locking ring and the bearing we always supply a delrin ring for a smooth rotation. For super smooth running applications we can supply a delrin ring with a ball race. ------------- Regards Mike H400 S/Y "Mystique" |
Posted By: Sailingjack
Date Posted: 15 November 2014 at 11:53
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Went to boat yesterday and measured rudder shaft dimensions. There is no locking ring under the upper bearing holding the rudder down.  The shaft diameter is 50mm and the gap between the bearing and the shaft shoulder is 16mm. Now I need to find/make a ring, preferably in two halves, to install there. 5 months time before launching ... no hurry. ------------- Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 15 November 2014 at 16:09
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The split ring I have from Jefa would fit in there Or try this site http://www.beltingonline.com/locking-bushes-collars-738/double-split-shaft-collars-938/metric-stainless-940/ beltingonline if you cannot get the link Not a bad price or if you try bearing boys at http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/CASB50Z_-_50mm_Single_Split_Shaft_Collar-40341-p you could get one for just over £10-00 but would have to drop the rudder a few inches ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: Sailingjack
Date Posted: 18 November 2014 at 19:42
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Thank you Samuel, for your info and links.  Now that I know the right english name for that part, it's easy to find plenty of them in internet. Or maybe I make one with a 3D printer at work, we'll see. And still waiting for a reply from Jefa. ------------- Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara |
Posted By: Sailingjack
Date Posted: 25 November 2014 at 19:32
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I received a reply from Jefa on Sunday (!). According to them I've got two options, a locking ring under the top bearing or between the rudder blade and the lower bearing. Both solutions will require a delrin/teflon washer for a smooth movement. A standard locking ring will not fit under the top bearing unless I lower the whole rudder. That means a wider gap between the top corner of the rudder blade's leading edge and the hull. Maybe I'll go for a tailormade, "slimline" locking ring. ------------- Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 26 November 2014 at 05:31
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Re the delrin washer You could split the washer on one side &spring it onto the shaft. It does not take a great load so will not distort Buy 2 washers to save carriage cost & if it does not last long you have a spare ready If it fell out mid season it would be no great deal. When i changed my rudder i found mine had never been fitted. All that happened was that the ring & bearing housing were very slightly scored. A smear of grease would have solved that ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: Mike400
Date Posted: 15 December 2014 at 19:46
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Hi Just a little update, the work is completed in our case, the missing ring is now installed and the rudder can't push against the hull anymore. Attach picture before and after. You find the product in www.jefa.com IF anyone would like to do the same. ""WASBA035-055 Washer with ball track 35 mm to 55 mm "" In our case (H400) 50 mm.  ------------- Regards Mike H400 S/Y "Mystique" |
Posted By: Mike400
Date Posted: 15 December 2014 at 20:51
Ups....sorry, here come pic "before"  ------------- Regards Mike H400 S/Y "Mystique" |
Posted By: Sailingjack
Date Posted: 11 March 2015 at 12:30
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Thank you all for your inputs. Launching day closing (still eight weeks to go) and it's time to start the preparations. I finally decided to go for a 50mm x 16mm split shaft collar and a teflon washer to keep the rudder down. It is an easy (and unexpensive) solution, without the need of removing the rudder. We'll see how it goes. If there is too much friction (even for just cruising), then I'll update it with Jefa's washer with ball track. The first spring day is here, +8 C, sun shine ... ------------- Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara |
Posted By: Gertjan
Date Posted: 15 March 2015 at 09:15
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Hello, looking at the picture of the rudderblade I see some damage to your boat. The rudder is grining to your hull. You need to put 2 plastic rings on your ruddershaft. These rings are specially designed for your blade/boat by Jefa, call them and they send you those rings. Officially these rings are put in place by the production of your boat. But it is a production in line boat, they forgot to place the rings..... ------------- Gertjan en Maaike |
Posted By: Rubato
Date Posted: 15 March 2015 at 23:23
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Gertjan Welcome to the party but you are a little late ;) Cheers ------------- Steve Hanse 400e, #168 |
Posted By: Peter-Blake
Date Posted: 16 March 2015 at 09:09
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Hmmmm, i am worried now...... 1. I know the rudder can float (look at Johans video) 2. My rudder never touched my hull so far. 3. But, the shown washer is missing on my boat aswell, maybe as on many Hanses. So why doesn´t my rudder push upwards? Or why do some rudders push upwards and some not..... I never had any problems with it. So i think, i will not change a running system. ------------- Blake 370 
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Posted By: Sailingjack
Date Posted: 15 March 2016 at 08:28
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Here's my update. Better late than ... whatever! Here is how I solved my rudder problem. Just a 1mm thick teflon washer and a regular two piece shaft collar. Since it's black oxide, I've got some rust already after one summer. But rudder turns smoothly and no longer scratching the hull.  ------------- Hanse 400#803 s/y Saara |
Posted By: espenalb
Date Posted: 29 March 2017 at 08:29
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Thank you for excellent documentation of this problem! My Hanse 400 had the exact same issue, and I was just about to start a process of modifying the rudder itself, assuming it was a problem with the shape of the rudder. This post saved my ass! Now I am just waiting for a washer and a shaft collar, then I'll have this issue fixed.
 |
Posted By: StavrosNZ
Date Posted: 04 April 2017 at 22:25
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The problem with these two piece clamp on rings is that they are to thick, you will end up with a gap between your rudder and hull that is way to large. Also if some idiot tries to remove your rudder and doesn't know its there they will do lots of damage. The gap between your rudder and hull should be 3-5mm with these rings its more like 20mm resulting in noticeable vibration through the steering when motoring due to disturbed water flow not to mention increasing forcing on the rudder at wrong point. On my 400 i used a glass filled nylon skin fitting nut 2 inch, machined threads out of the center to give me 50.5mm clearance for the 50.0mm shaft. Cost of the washer NZ$4.00, the flange of the nut is perfect size to sit against the under side of the top bearing. I fitted this with the boat in the water, unbolted the steering quadrant and retaining ring, pushed rudder down out of the top bearing, dropped the washer on and refitted rudder, retaining ring and steering quadrant. Clearance between rudder an hull is approx 5mm.  ------------- Stephen 2010 H400 #691, Auckland, New Zealand |
Posted By: DJgun
Date Posted: 23 December 2020 at 12:26
| Nice solution Stavros. |
Posted By: Heikki
Date Posted: 02 October 2024 at 08:05
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Hi, I want to remove rudder for service from my Hanse 400e 2006. I suppose I have to remove the bolt going through the rudder stock. I that all I have to do? Heikki  ------------- Melanie Hanse 400e #121 |
Posted By: iemand
Date Posted: 02 October 2024 at 08:21
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that is all you need to do to loose the rudder. you should suppor the rudder from the bottom side otherwise the rudder can simply fall down and get damaged ------------- Hanse 312 MJ 2004 - Hanse 370e MJ 2007 |
Posted By: MasterKeil
Date Posted: 02 October 2024 at 15:36
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There is a Jefa Video on youtube: https://youtu.be/xF9OXOCrE5c?si=gzn09rdFKdTmHjeW" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/xF9OXOCrE5c?si=gzn09rdFKdTmHjeW ------------- Hanse 370#640 "Nemesis" |
Posted By: Mark_J1
Date Posted: 02 October 2024 at 17:11
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Heikki - FYI some points from my own experience of dropping the rudder. My 400e is hull #31 and the Jefa setup looks the same. 1. Remove the horizontal bolt in the rudder shaft. 2. Note the quadrant is part of the top bearing, and does not move vertically. 3. In theory the rudder will drop out. In my experience, it's far more stubborn than that! 4. Assuming the rudder shaft needs 'persuasion', then a rubber mallet is a good start. That dropped the shaft a few centimetres, however it then stuck again. 5. As per the Jefa videos, I then had to use wooden wedges between hull and the top of the rudder and squeeze them in with an F-clamp. Jefa also uses a very large wooden pole as a lever! 6. Just when you are about to give up the rudder finally drops, so do have padding below ready for it. 7. Assuming the boat isn't too high in its cradle the stock won't actually come right out. To extract the rudder you'll need to lean it backwards, and draw it out sternward. 8. If you are feeling strong you can do it all by yourself, however a helper is advised :) 9. If you have minor corrosion on the shaft then Jefa do a repair sleeve, which can be slid into place. Drop them an email, I found them very helpful. A repair sleeve will likely cause a swap of the bottom bearing. That's a little tricky to get out the first time, so check the Jefa videos for a how to guide. 10. Overall, it's an awkward job first time around but gets easier! :) Mark ------------- Hanse 400e "Grey Goose" Hull #31 |
Posted By: Heikki
Date Posted: 07 October 2024 at 19:55
Thanks for all hints. After removing the bolt the rudder slowly came down by turning it back and forth. ------------- Melanie Hanse 400e #121 |
Posted By: Heikki
Date Posted: 07 October 2024 at 20:01
My next question is how to remove the bottom bearing? It seems to be the same type as shown in Jefas video, but it is completely stuck and does not move at all. ------------- Melanie Hanse 400e #121 |
Posted By: Mark_J1
Date Posted: 07 October 2024 at 22:21
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I had to tilt the bottom bearing a lot more than was apparent in the Jefa videos. The bearing cup is inset a fair way, so I had trouble getting both enough leverage and space for the lever. A fibreglass axe handle was my preferred tool in the end, which might give you a sense of the size of implement needed. It sat in the hole at an angle but was large enough to get some purchase when levering from the rear though not so large it fouled the edges of the hole. A bit like the rudder shaft, once you move the bearing back and forth a few times it will start to free up. Mark ------------- Hanse 400e "Grey Goose" Hull #31 |
Posted By: redlion
Date Posted: 08 October 2024 at 09:30
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You could try cable tying the shaft of an old wellington boot or something similar to a length of scaffold pole and that should give you enough purchase to make it move then just keep wiggling it until you can turn it round and remove it. Pouring a couple of kettles of boiling water down on it might help to melt the grease that was used to install it....Good luck. ------------- It,s not over till the fat lady drowns |
Posted By: Heikki
Date Posted: 08 October 2024 at 12:04
Mark was right, a "special tool" was needed. ------------- Melanie Hanse 400e #121 |
Posted By: Mark_J1
Date Posted: 09 October 2024 at 08:29
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Heikki - glad you got it solved. Don’t forget to keep the special tool for next time :) Mark ------------- Hanse 400e "Grey Goose" Hull #31 |
Posted By: Annalethia
Date Posted: 10 October 2024 at 14:36
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I have a 400 built in 2008 and need to service the bearings. Does anyone know the length of the rudder stock as I need to make sure there is enough clearance to lower and remove the rudder? Thanks ------------- CoCo Hanse 400 #470 Medway UK |
Posted By: Mark_J1
Date Posted: 10 October 2024 at 20:50
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I haven’t got the exact measurement, however with the boat sat in a substantial 20T cradle the keel was about 40cm above the hard standing. At that height I could just lower and tilt the rudder shaft to remove it. However, I couldn’t lower it completely vertically. The rudder from top of shaft to bottom edge is well over 2m. Essentially, the boat needs to be resting: above ground level, hanging in strops or you need a floor you can dig a hole in. Mark ------------- Hanse 400e "Grey Goose" Hull #31 |
Posted By: Heikki
Date Posted: 11 October 2024 at 07:11
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The exact measure from blade top to stock top is 735 mm on my H 400e from 2006. Heikki ------------- Melanie Hanse 400e #121 |