Rudder Removal
Printed From: myHanse.com
Category: Hints & Tips
Forum Name: 341 / 342
Forum Description: 341 / 342 Hints and Tims
URL: https://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8707
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 03:29
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Topic: Rudder Removal
Posted By: franko
Subject: Rudder Removal
Date Posted: 30 October 2014 at 19:50
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Well, I am embarrased to ask this question but, hell, here goes: I have had the rudder off my boat twice in the past and this was going to be the third time. Yesterday and today a friend and I tried everything including brute force and ignorance but the rudder would not budge. Not a millimetre. I think this is the type of upper bearing fitted.  Having removed the three grub screws I expected that with a little gentle ;-) tapping with a small ;-) hammer the rudder stock would decend as before out of the boat. This was not to be. Lots of WD40, heat, bad language did not help. I could make up some kind of jacking arrangement instead of the Big Hammer approach but I am afraid of damaging the bearing housing in way of the supporting shoulders. (Red bearings in above drawing)  Any forum members have any tips as to how to encourage the rudder and bearing to part company? The good news is my repair of 2½ years ago when I carried out open-heart surgery on the rudder appears to have held out well. I may just re-assemble everything and leave well alone. As 'they' say: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". F. |
Replies:
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 31 October 2014 at 05:35
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use a piece of timber between the top of the rudder blade & the hull & gently lever downwards Are you sure that you have not left any retaining rings in place?? ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: franko
Date Posted: 31 October 2014 at 07:47
Morning, Tried that of course. What retaining rings? F. |
samuel wrote:Posted By: skipper
Date Posted: 31 October 2014 at 15:10
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This is the thread I created when I was facing the similar issues you are. http://www.myhanse.com/how-to-remove-rudder-with-jefa-lewmar-bearings_topic5604_page2.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.myhanse.com/how-to-remove-rudder-with-jefa-lewmar-bearings_topic5604_page2.html ------------- Cheers, Skipper Former owner of Hanse 342 2005 (Sparcraft mast, white hull, wheel steering, deep draft keel, short rudder) |
Posted By: franko
Date Posted: 01 November 2014 at 11:57
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Thanks for that Skipper, have just read through that old thread. I am now thinking of trying to force apart the upper bearing from the stock by making up a couple of plates as below thereby not risking damage to the upper bearing housing (which I see is pretty damn expensive).  Oh, the joys of boat ownership. ( I am still considering that motorhome Ole ;-) F. |
Posted By: kirkelund
Date Posted: 10 November 2014 at 13:52
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Hi Frank I have been off line for some time, and I didn't notice your problems removing the rudder. Great that your open-heart surgery operation seems to have been successful, but did you succeed in removing the rudder after all? Hope you didn't have to "amputate"  I am sorry I can't give you any advice even though I finally replaced the rudder on Amani this summer. I "cheated" and had it done by professionals. I was not even there when they detached the old rudder. I remember, however, that the new rudder was fixed with a "pin" on the top bearing. (I believe the same was the case with the old rudder). But of course you must be aware of all such details by now. BTW - it is no excuse for considering that motorhome. I am having serious problems getting my 10-year old Citroen through the periodical car inspection. Could turn out to be as expensive as a new rudder  (I promise to post some pictures of the new rudder soon. I just have to pick out the right "rudder thread". Don't want to start a new one). Ole, ------------- Kirkelund "Amani" Lynetten, Copenhagen, Denmark Hanse 342 (grey hull, wheel steering, deep draft keel, Jefa rudder - RUD34) |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 10 November 2014 at 16:23
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please excuse me if you have--- but have you fully removed the gaiter to check what is under it ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: franko
Date Posted: 11 November 2014 at 08:58
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Good Morning, Ole, no pin in my top bearing, just the three grub or 'set' screws. I have not been at the boat to try again for a few days as I am busy with my 42 year old Fiat also for the biennial test. (Beats your Citröen!) Gaiter taken off Samuel and nothing under there apart from the lower bearing - no pins or other retaining arrangements. By the way Ole, Amani looks bootiful in Råå. I am a just little jealous F. |
Posted By: Markku
Date Posted: 11 November 2014 at 16:35
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I had the same problem few years back when the rudder was changed. After made sure there was not anything else to hold rudder only option to get it off was to remove the upper bearing from the deck. Opening the screws and removing Sika the bearing base was quite easily losen. Having the new rudder in place I first had it together with the bearing and then fixed bearing back and finalised installation. I think the problem was that rudder shaft lining was not quite as straight as it should have been, hence the rudder did not move first. Markku ------------- S/Y Flow Hanse 371 |
Posted By: franko
Date Posted: 11 November 2014 at 17:22
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Hi Markku, Kiitos. Maybe we have different upper bearings but if you look at mine (above) you will see that loosening the upper bearing (I have done that) won't help if the bearing and shaft are intent on sticking together. Had some input today from JEFA today (Helpful as always) suggesting I try 'CARAMBA' oil to break the bond. Anyone out there with experience of this product? It seems hard to find here (German product I think). Kippis Franko |
Posted By: franko
Date Posted: 11 November 2014 at 17:35
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Hello again. Just out of interest, if we think the early Hanse Rudders were badly made take a look at this:  Taken from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0tGeAgqqRI F. |
Posted By: kirkelund
Date Posted: 12 November 2014 at 16:11
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Hi Frank Good luck with the Caramba. I believe it is very similar to WD40. In fact, as I recall Caramba was what most people used before WD40 took over the market completely, so if that didn't help...hhm? I have also seen that YouTube video before. It's absurd to build a rudder with a rudder stock that is not even glued on to the blade - only inserted into the foam! And thanks for the approving comments, Frank.  I have posted the pictures of Amani's new rudder here:http://www.myhanse.com/rudder-size_topic3097_page7.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.myhanse.com/rudder-size_topic3097_page7.html (The new rudder was actually installed in Dragør by Dragør Baadeværft. They are service yard to the Danish Hanse retailer - Scandinavian Yacht Centre (SYC)). BTW, why would Swedish residents drive 42-year old cars??? (Outsiders need to know that cars in Denmark are taxed to about 180% of their retail price  In Sweden the tax is next to zero). So I got my excuse in place Apart from that I prefer my bikeOle, ------------- Kirkelund "Amani" Lynetten, Copenhagen, Denmark Hanse 342 (grey hull, wheel steering, deep draft keel, Jefa rudder - RUD34) |
Posted By: franko
Date Posted: 12 November 2014 at 22:16
Hi Ole, Because it looks like this and sounds good too ;-)  Do you know if your JEFA Rudder is their model RUD34, GRP Blade 0.7m2 Ole ? Cheers F. |
Posted By: kirkelund
Date Posted: 13 November 2014 at 10:28
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Wow, Frank, that looks more like an Aston Martin Vantage! But, it is a very good excuse I have to admit Yes, my new rudder is the Jefa model RUD34, which has a blade area of 0,70 m2. I would expect this rudder to be even better than the original deep rudder, that most 341s are fitted with. It has a NACA profile and is probably also better balanced. The position of the rudder stock is spot on in my view. Ole, ------------- Kirkelund "Amani" Lynetten, Copenhagen, Denmark Hanse 342 (grey hull, wheel steering, deep draft keel, Jefa rudder - RUD34) |
Posted By: franko
Date Posted: 29 November 2014 at 11:40
Uncanny resemblance actually.  Well spotted Ole ;-) |
Posted By: Interlude
Date Posted: 25 March 2016 at 01:02
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Now it is my turn to need a new rudder, can anyone advice the part number or description for a Jefa RUD34 (deep blade) to suit a wheel steered 342 built in November 2004. The only drawings I have been able to find seem to be for tiller steered boats with a H dimension of 900 or 685 mm, whereas my H dimension seem to be about 1300 mm. Diameter at the bottom is 68 mm. The H dimension is the stock length above the blade. Any help will be appreciated, I have just been through the rudder removal thread and will now search for earlier threads. ------------- Interlude 342#241 |
Posted By: kirkelund
Date Posted: 25 March 2016 at 08:53
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@Interlude I have sent you a PM. I can't find the order details at the moment, but I will get back to you if I find them. Jefa should, however, be able to determine the right dimensions for your boat. Ole, ------------- Kirkelund "Amani" Lynetten, Copenhagen, Denmark Hanse 342 (grey hull, wheel steering, deep draft keel, Jefa rudder - RUD34) |
Posted By: H8jer
Date Posted: 25 March 2016 at 17:06
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Hi Jefa has drawings on a ftp server: ftp://ftp.jefa.com/old_boat_spare_parts/Hanse/Hanse_342/" rel="nofollow - ftp://ftp.jefa.com/old_boat_spare_parts/Hanse/Hanse_342/ For other hanse boats: ftp://ftp.jefa.com/old_boat_spare_parts/Hanse/" rel="nofollow - ftp://ftp.jefa.com/old_boat_spare_parts/Hanse/ viewing ftp content may be a problem with ipads/iphones? kind regards /H8jer ------------- Hanse 370#487 30HP 3-cabin |
Posted By: Interlude
Date Posted: 27 March 2016 at 00:22
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Thanks /H8jer and Kirkeland - the clue (thanks Kirkeland) is that I have the 342 version with the closed in transom, and the rudder stock comes up to deck level - the photos on the Jefa ftp site are all short stock. I will go back to Jefa with this info - I am also making up a calliper to try to make a more accurate measurement of the stock length - not easy with the boat in the water. My revision so far is 1047 mm inside the hull to the top of the stock, but I need to repeat from outside ..... to include the hull thickness and clearance. Has anyone ever tried to remove and instal the rudder with the boat in the water? I am in a marina with 3 to 5m depth and a sandy bottom, and have a diver who has replaced the prop in the water - probably too risky, but an entertaining thought to save about 700 Euros lift and hardstand costs. ------------- Interlude 342#241 |
Posted By: robh
Date Posted: 27 March 2016 at 14:54
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Hi Interlude,
Blue Horizon is a 341 which is virtually the same boat and I think I can safely say that attempting to remove the rudder with the boat in the water would be foolhardy in the extreme. What you may think you are saving in haul out cost would be outweighed by the damage done from the ingress of water. Depending on what you need this removed for the best option and cheapest would be something like sea lift. Good luck and don't try the in water option! ------------- Cheers, Rob "Blue Horizon" Hanse 341#113 Portsmouth Harbour UK |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 28 March 2016 at 08:08
I agree it would be too much hassle doing it whilst in the water - but tell me -Why would water get in? ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: Johan Hackman
Date Posted: 28 March 2016 at 09:25
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I wanted to know if my rudder would sink if I removed the tiller head so with the boat on the hard I took the rudder to the water and dipped it. You can see from the video below that it has a lot of buoyancy. I think it would be impossible to remove it from the boat while the boat is still in the water. It is difficult enough to remove with the boat out of the water. With the tiller head removed it is only held in place by the bearings but they somehow give you hard time pulling the rudder out. Johan -------------  http://www.johanhackman.se" rel="nofollow - http://www.johanhackman.se |
Posted By: robh
Date Posted: 28 March 2016 at 13:07
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The reason is the bottom bearing is very close to, or even under the water, as I have seen on one boat. The internal flexible seal at the lower bearing should prevent any water getting into the boat, however this could very easily be damaged in the process of attempting to remove the rudder. Johan mentioned in his reply it is very difficult to push or pull the rudder down and out of the boat, so there is every chance the lower seal could get damaged. The position of this seal is difficult to get to and there is to much of a risk of water getting into the boat, so on the balance of probabilities I certainly would not attempt this. ------------- Cheers, Rob "Blue Horizon" Hanse 341#113 Portsmouth Harbour UK |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 28 March 2016 at 16:01
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On my Hanse, at least the bearing does not form any sort of watertight seal. The water runs up into the rollers possibly to lubricate them ( although salt can be a problem). What stops the water getting into the boat is a GRP tube that extends above the waterline. Failure of the bearing or the neoprene gaiter has nothing to do with stopping water getting into the boat. The gaiter is there to stop small drips of water forced up the tube by wave action.My gaiter was split for a couple of years before I replaced it. Provided the rudder is removed without damage to the surrounding area no water will enter the boat apart from any being washed up by wave action.Any seal around the bearing would soon be rendered useless by wear or by the corrosion of the stock leaving small pitting in the shaft. Thus allowing water past Have a look at your own boat & I would expect you to find the same detail. Still not worth trying to remove the rudder in the water though, as Johan has demonstrated it will want to float upwards thus jamming the shaft in the bottom bearing ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: robh
Date Posted: 28 March 2016 at 16:30
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Thanks Samuel, I will have to inspect this internally more closely to see if mine is of similar construction for future reference. However as Johan demonstrated it would be very difficult, if not impossible to remove the rudder whilst in the water. ------------- Cheers, Rob "Blue Horizon" Hanse 341#113 Portsmouth Harbour UK |
Posted By: Johan Hackman
Date Posted: 28 March 2016 at 17:54
I thought the same until my gaiter became very dirty with grit from the stopping ring abrading against the upper bearing. Then it struck me that the gaiter is preventing the grit from getting to the bottom bearing that would be very sensitive to it. I actually don't think any water would splash up the tube beyond the bottom bearing. I think the bearing is to tight to allow for that. I however think the water lubricates the bearing and that no other lubrication should be used. Johan ------------- http://www.johanhackman.se" rel="nofollow - http://www.johanhackman.se |
Posted By: skipper
Date Posted: 28 March 2016 at 18:14
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Been there, done that For several years ago did I face the similar rudder issue as Johan did. I know that the water in the tube will change level depending on the boatspeed, with a rudder tube in place no water shall reach the top of the tube but as other mention what happens if the tube is damaged (hard to believe it can happened but anyhow). One recommendation I tested long time ago was to fill Yes + water in the tube and move the wheel back and forth trying to clean the lower bearing. It was hard to remove the rudder with the boat on the hard, lot of force to get it down. In water there will be a force to move it upwards that has to be overcome when removing it. Do it on the hard and be prepare that suddenly will it fall down when you push hard, I smashed our rudder so hard I had to repair the lower part of it. My view is that the gaiter is to prevent dirt to hit the lower bearing, a friende with a First 31.7 don't have any gaiter at all.
------------- Cheers, Skipper Former owner of Hanse 342 2005 (Sparcraft mast, white hull, wheel steering, deep draft keel, short rudder) |
Posted By: Interlude
Date Posted: 29 March 2016 at 11:11
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Several points of confusion here - Johan's rudder has buoyancy, but the Jefa website says the blade weighs 13 kg, and a (much larger stock - 88mm dia by 900 mm length) weighs 24 kg, so even half the stock weight gives a total of 25 kg, supporting skipper's experience. Now for my on-going issue - I can't find a drawing on the Jefa website for my rudder, and it may be that they have only supplied to the later 342,s with the open transom. Maybe that is when the rudder supplier deteriorated. My best estimate for the H dimension (stock length above the top of the blade) is 1090~1095 mm, compared to 685 mm for the wheel steered stock (skipper's boat) and 775 mm for the tiller steered stock (presumably what Johan has). The length is critical, I need to get it to within a few mm before it interferes with the hull or leaves too much clearance. I will ask Jefa again if they ever supplied rudders for the hulls with the raised transom, but the fact that I now have 11 years of no problems with the rudder compared to other's experience may mean that they never had to replace the original rudders (until now). But if they can't help, I will need to remove the rudder, measure it, put it back on while I have one made, and repeat the process. So if anyone with a wheel steered 342 near 241 build date (November 2004) has any information which would help, please let me know. By the way, when I remove the cover to my top bearing (by Jefa) I see a 10 mm diameter pin across the 50 mm stock - it is shown on the wheel steered stock but not on the tiller steered stock. Is this pin what stops the rudder falling out? As against three grub screws mentioned at the top of this series of rudder removal adventures?? The pin is also the engagement mechanism to the emergency tiller. Thanks all, Interlude. ------------- Interlude 342#241 |
Posted By: robh
Date Posted: 29 March 2016 at 11:56
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Perhaps they used the same spec and drawing as the wheel steering fitted on my 341, which has a full transom rather than the slightly changed 342 tiller version? I don't have a drawing or the full details but surely Hanse should have records and dare I say it drawings of the boat as built and should be able to supply details if Jefa cannot? ------------- Cheers, Rob "Blue Horizon" Hanse 341#113 Portsmouth Harbour UK |
Posted By: Interlude
Date Posted: 30 March 2016 at 22:28
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Hi Rob, thanks for this suggestion, I will follow up with Jefa and Hanse. Do you know if your original rudder was supplied by Jefa or another Hanse subcontractor? Has it needed attention during the life of your 341 - presumably over 11 years old? I am wondering if the issues that many 342 owners have had with rudders occurred after the change to the shorter stock rudders with the open transom 342 versions, and perhaps my rudder is in better condition than thought, with slight blistering and some visible pitting on the stock. Cheers, ------------- Interlude 342#241 |
Posted By: robh
Date Posted: 31 March 2016 at 11:20
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Hi Interlude, I've had BH since new in 2003 and believe the rudder itself is made by Jefa as all the bits around it, bearings top mount etc have Jefa on them. I've had no issues with the system, apart from the "O" ring seal in the top cap that had split, which I think was due to outside intervention but Jefa sent me a couple of replacements FOC. To be honest I have had no issues with the boat apart from a couple of small manufacturing problems that were fixed in the first couple of months after delivery. I sailed a 342 a few weeks after they released it and from memory there was very little difference from the 341, both excellent boats. Good luck with getting your issues resolved. ------------- Cheers, Rob "Blue Horizon" Hanse 341#113 Portsmouth Harbour UK |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 31 March 2016 at 15:32
My 311 was also built in 2003. The rudder is the same size as that detailed by Johan Hackman in a thread a few years ago & he has a 34. When I broke it I was shocked at how badly it was made inside & was certainly not a Jefa. The bearings etc - like yours- are Jefa. So perhaps you may not have a Jefa. Do you get water in the blade? I did because there was insufficient foam filling. I drilled a hole 150mm from the top & water ran out. A possible check would be to measure the trailing edge. My one was 50mm greater than my replacement Jefa ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: iemand
Date Posted: 31 March 2016 at 20:57
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JEFA didn't made rudders in 2003/2004. Yours where made by ERMA in Poland I'm convinced. As far as I know JEFA started to build rudders in 2008/2009 BR Thomas ------------- Hanse 312 MJ 2004 - Hanse 370e MJ 2007 |
Posted By: robh
Date Posted: 01 April 2016 at 12:44
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Hi, I have just emailed my contact at Hanse UK on this, as the documentation and the logos suggest the rudder and all its fittings are Jefa. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier in this thread I had a problem with the "O" ring top seal and after contacting Jefa they sent me a couple of spares. I will also take a look more closely when I take the boat out of the water next week for a pressure wash and anode check to see if I can see anything that indicates the provenance of the rudder. It could well be that everything including the stock was produced by Jefa and the blade fabricated on Jefa parts by someone else but will not prejudge this. Once I get an answer I will post it on this thread. ------------- Cheers, Rob "Blue Horizon" Hanse 341#113 Portsmouth Harbour UK |
Posted By: samuel
Date Posted: 01 April 2016 at 16:49
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That is interesting. Where on the rudder blade or stock will I find the Jefa logo? ------------- Daydream Believer- Hanse 311- No GBR9917T- Bradwell Essex |
Posted By: H8jer
Date Posted: 02 April 2016 at 08:15
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Hi I don't know what year JEFA began to supply rudders to Hanse. But my 311 from 2001 has JEFA 42035 STP - top roller bearing and 41068 lower roller bearing. The rudder is most certainly not a slim high performing Jefa Rudder... More like a shallow draft bulky polish best try to build a steering device at the end of a boat. http://myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2909&PID=45530&title=tillersteering-is-it-hard#45530" rel="nofollow - http://myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2909&PID=45530&title=tillersteering-is-it-hard#45530 It it of the "old Johan" type. Which properbly is ERMA made. I've seen a ERMA sticker on another location on the boat. Due to heavy corrosion at the lower roller bearing I have now drilled a 130mm hole and is replacing the whole setup except the top bearing. It will have a metalfree lower bearing, glassfiber tube and no gaiter. A RUD34 is on is way, and that rudder is 250mm deeper/longer than the old rudder. I showed the old rudder to JEFA, and they said that it proberbly had been a deep draft rudder, cut with a jigsaw to be a shallow draft rudder... /H8jer ------------- Hanse 370#487 30HP 3-cabin |
Posted By: iemand
Date Posted: 02 April 2016 at 09:04
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That is exactly how they did it. Just cuted it off... ------------- Hanse 312 MJ 2004 - Hanse 370e MJ 2007 |
Posted By: robh
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 19:05
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I have had a reply from Hanse UK and apparently ERMA made the whole rudder and Jefa made the bearings and other parts of the system such as top cover as ERMA never made the bearings. Jefa have made their own moulds
for the 341 and 342 Erma rudders, as ERMA went bust some years ago and these
can be supplied by Hanse UK. I hope this helps. ------------- Cheers, Rob "Blue Horizon" Hanse 341#113 Portsmouth Harbour UK |
Posted By: Interlude
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 06:56
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I can now confirm that the rudder fitted to my 342#241, build certificate date 29 November 2004, is as robh suggested (29 March) identical to the wheel steered 341, with a shaft length of 1085 mm. I assume the cutout transom was introduced after November 2004, with much shorter shaft lengths. There may be a third manufacturer, as both my original rudder and the Jeffa replacement are very heavy, in contrast to the unit Johan has. Cheers, Jim ------------- Interlude 342#241 |
Posted By: Interlude
Date Posted: 18 January 2017 at 05:47
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I can now report on performance, which is greatly improved. Tacking angle is significantly better, and there is far more control when she is trying to round up in a gust. I have seen such reports from other owners before, but seeing (or feeling) is believing. Cheers, Jim ------------- Interlude 342#241 |
Posted By: kirkelund
Date Posted: 18 January 2017 at 17:56
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Hi Jim Congratulations with your new rudder. I conclude from the previous dscussion that you opted for the Jefa RUD34. Since I have also installed this rudder, I can confirm your experience. It's by far the greatest improvement of my 342 that I have ever made  Ole, ------------- Kirkelund "Amani" Lynetten, Copenhagen, Denmark Hanse 342 (grey hull, wheel steering, deep draft keel, Jefa rudder - RUD34) |