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How come only Category B?

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mglonnro View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 April 2021 at 06:30
Originally posted by Matt1 Matt1 wrote:

can’t comment on the 348, but in the 40’ size Hanse’s CE rating is generally superior to most French models (or was when I walked round Düsseldorf in 2019). The Hanse 418 rating A 10, vs the french equivalents being A8 or less. 

What I’m unsure of is whether the builder gets to choose the crew size or whether that is some formulaic calculation based on number of Berths. I wonder what the Beneteau 35.1 would rate if it were with a crew of 8? 

If there is an element of choice with regards to crew numbers than I’m not sure why Hanse would favour a large crew number over an A rating? For instance I wouldn’t really want to sail with 10 people on a Hanse 418 (A10 rated)

I think (=guess) that the crew number is just shorthand for a specific amount of weight placed somewhere in/on the boat (I think the positioning was one thing that was changed in 2016 with the updated regulations). 

The Beneteau 35.1 is rated for three different "maximum people", so I assume the manufacturers get to choose themselves what ratings they attempt to fit into (with what number of people). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2021 at 06:24
can’t comment on the 348, but in the 40’ size Hanse’s CE rating is generally superior to most French models (or was when I walked round Düsseldorf in 2019). The Hanse 418 rating A 10, vs the french equivalents being A8 or less. 

What I’m unsure of is whether the builder gets to choose the crew size or whether that is some formulaic calculation based on number of Berths. I wonder what the Beneteau 35.1 would rate if it were with a crew of 8? 

If there is an element of choice with regards to crew numbers than I’m not sure why Hanse would favour a large crew number over an A rating? For instance I wouldn’t really want to sail with 10 people on a Hanse 418 (A10 rated)
Hanse 418 #64 EmBer. Hamble, UK
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mglonnro View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mglonnro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2021 at 21:45
Originally posted by axiom axiom wrote:

Thanks for the link. The page describes the category classification very well.

But still, for what reasons are the French 10m’ers category A, while the Hanse is only category B?

In what way are the French 10m’ers better? I’d like to know

Up this question! I stumbled upon this same issue myself. Hanse 348 has only one rating, max 8 people, category B, while the Beneteau 35.1 is A6-B8-C10. 

Does anyone have more details about this? I guess it's some stability curve or something that is borderline on the worse side of some requirement for the Hanse so that they couldn't/wouldn't go for the A6 rating for the 348?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote axiom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2019 at 17:35
Thanks for the link. The page describes the category classification very well.

But still, for what reasons are the French 10m’ers category A, while the Hanse is only category B?

In what way are the French 10m’ers better? I’d like to know
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carlosailfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2019 at 14:51
Some explanation you can find here :)



Best regards
/C
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote axiom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2019 at 14:14
Conspiracy theory.

I am supposing the French's solution is to equip the yacht with a smaller water tank as standard. That reduces the weight by 200kg, hence qualifies the yacht as Cat A?

But what else?
How come the French can build 10m category A yachts, but the Germans cannot?
I'd like to understand why.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2019 at 20:52
Originally posted by Carlosailfan Carlosailfan wrote:

I was this weekend out for sailing on the north sea in 6 Bft. There you meet slightly the limits of the H 385. Not that i felt in danger, by far but a bit more lead in the keel would be helpful as well as the right setting of the sails. ( with the standard set you also meet the limits )  So in a nutshell, behavior was still fine despite the wind and the waves but there are for sure better yachts out there to go on 6 Bft and more but they also have a different price tag. Our 385 has still the A category on the plate, but what does it tell ??? There is a lot of theory behind ( as explained above ) and navigating them in high waves and wind starts with the skills of the captain.

Seaworthiness starts most of the time with the captain, how much can he / she have, the material comes later. ( of course you have to keep your material in good shape !! )

We are not worried to go on a reach with our H320 at Bft. 6 or even Bft. 7. 
Nevertheless, going upwind under the same conditions is a total different story. Our H320 is going upwind pretty well, much better than many boats of the same size. Nevertheless, there is a limited fun in going upwind at 25 knots in flat water and close to no fun to do the same in short and steep waves, like in the Ijsselmer or the Baltic. 
The boat will do well, but the crew will have limited fun. 
Jan
Hanse 320 #548 "SCHNEGGE"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carlosailfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2019 at 08:55
I was this weekend out for sailing on the north sea in 6 Bft. There you meet slightly the limits of the H 385. Not that i felt in danger, by far but a bit more lead in the keel would be helpful as well as the right setting of the sails. ( with the standard set you also meet the limits )  So in a nutshell, behavior was still fine despite the wind and the waves but there are for sure better yachts out there to go on 6 Bft and more but they also have a different price tag. Our 385 has still the A category on the plate, but what does it tell ??? There is a lot of theory behind ( as explained above ) and navigating them in high waves and wind starts with the skills of the captain.

Seaworthiness starts most of the time with the captain, how much can he / she have, the material comes later. ( of course you have to keep your material in good shape !! )
Best regards
/C
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote axiom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2019 at 07:28
@S&J

thanks for the info.
How come then those French ships aren't downgraded to Category B due to the new CE changes?
The Dufour 360 and the Grand Soleil 34 came out in 2017 for example. They should have applied the newer CE standard already, yet they are Category A.


Edited by axiom - 24 July 2019 at 07:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S&J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2019 at 07:07
I think the  345 and 385 were originally category A but the rating system was changed a few years ago and they were re-rated as category B.

The new 388 is category A with a standard rig or B with in mast furling.
The changes in the rating system made new assumptions about the weight of crew, equipment, stores and fuel which result in the weight of the boat (for rating purposes) being increased.  This affects the displacement to ballast ratio and also the (calculated) righting ability of the boat.

From memory I think that category B is rated offshore for conditions where waves can be up to 4 metres.  Category A ,(Ocean) anticipates waves in excess of 4 metres.

There is a well established principal that ANY sailing boat is likely to be knocked down / capsized if hit beam on by a wave greater than half the hull length.

Whilst a 385 has been successfully sailed from Greifswald to Sydney, I'm not sure that I'd want to try this myself and I would certainly not set off on any passage that might encounter waves greater than 4m.

If you have, or are considering getting, a 348 I think you can be assured of having a fast, safe and stiff boat capable of offshore passages such as North Sea or Biscay in the right weather conditions.  If you need something for ocean crossings, perhaps a heavier displacement boat might be a better choice.
H458 #159 Primal launched May 2021
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