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John Allison 
Rear Admiral 
Joined: 23 November 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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 Posted: 01 October 2006 at 13:30 |
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Hi Tobo, Yes - I did get misinterpret your message and for a second time, I apologies for my tight ass reply earlier. Agree 100% with the point you've clarified - I'd certainly prefer Hanse to keep on the quality track as opposed to the opposite. Cheers JOHN |
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No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had!
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Brad McMaster
Commadore 
Joined: 27 September 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 383 |
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Posted: 02 October 2006 at 20:18 |
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Hey guys i keep reading all your comments with interest and keep trying to weigh it all up. I take the point that the 470 is cheaper, but at the end of the day is it fair to say, yes they've saved something on the winches and maybe even the AP etc, but is there that much difference btw the lewmars and the Harkens? The helms seats are coming and the jury is out on how adequate they’ll be, but lets wait and see. The circulation in the aft cabins, again lets see if in production this is remedied. The excess space down below - can retro fit some hand holds etc, (Charlie from Largs is). And finally the nav table is fairly average, but again they are working on solutions and options here too. Which leaves the assumption that the hull, mast, sail, build quality on joints, backing plates etc are all the same as the other Hanse that are loved and appreciated. So are we being overly unfair that prehaps the production method is allowing savings to be passed on to the sailors and this boat is as strong, well constructed, quick in the water and as safe as the others. Or am I being daft!!! Keep up the debate, you are giving me much food for thought as I try decide what to buy!! Regards Brad |
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John Allison
Rear Admiral
Joined: 23 November 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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Posted: 03 October 2006 at 09:22 |
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Hi Brad,
I think you've summed up the obvious visible differences and I'm sure the 470 is just as safe, fast and will be as well loved by its owners. It is a good looking yacht.
Lets hope it proves to be equally as popular as the 461.
Cheers
JOHN
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No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had!
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Terry
Captain 
Joined: 04 August 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 214 |
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Posted: 03 October 2006 at 09:29 |
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Brad I could not agree more ,I am in the same position.Fighting with myself on which one to go for ,there is so much I like on the 400 then I think I should wait and get the 430,which looks like delayed,!!??and then to top it off went on board (charlies)470 and apart from the Helms seats and a couple of things I wld like,I feel I should stop messing and get that.After chartering the 531 a couple of weeks ago Despite being fantastic I know thats too much for me.So please keep discussing.
Terry
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Brad McMaster
Commadore
Joined: 27 September 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 383 |
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Posted: 03 October 2006 at 09:37 |
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Fair enough, so basically what everyone is debating is some of the finer details that might influence the popularity and maybe even resale’s but not the psychical credentials of the yacht. It is funny as some days I’m convinced my mind is made up but on others I read something that plants a seed of doubt, just trying to place levels of importance on all aspects and the first consideration is, does the 470 stack up as a safe, capable passage making vessel (bearing in mind the helm, nav desk, hand holds and circulation are sort or acceptable)?? Thoughts? Anything else I should place high priority on??
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John Allison
Rear Admiral
Joined: 23 November 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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Posted: 03 October 2006 at 11:03 |
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Storage.
We only sail for four months at a time and have to say that whilst we've still got lots of empty lockers down below we find on the 461 we are challenged for 'bulk' storage space. Space accessible from deck level and able to take wet or mucky stuff.
We may be an exception, but under passage we carry a full sized spinnaker plus a Code 0 in big man sized bags, our deflated 3.4M Zodiac, the passerell, BBQ, plus assorted boathooks, tools, hoses and bits, 4 x 10 litre spare fuel containers, 2 x large deflated fenders, spare cordage, and 8 big fenders.
At present (with a squeeze) it all goes into the 461 lazarette.
When we believe we'll be changing headsails several times a day - we'll often wedge the spinnaker or the code 0 into the anchor well or strap it to the cabin top as we find this more efficient than removing / repacking the lazarette.
We also carry under cockpit seats a 6 man liferaft, assorted safety bits, grab bag, electrical lines and connections, 3 bottles of gas, about 8 hefty mooring lines.
We finally store on the pushpit 2 x horseshoes, 8HP outboard, inflatable dan-buoy pack.
Down below we've no issues and also strap 2 folding bikes plus all cockpit cushions on the topsides of the aft cabin lockers. OH - we store our second anchor plus outboard fuel tank in the anchor well.
In summary you'll be able to do much the same on the 470 - except you may find a challenge with lazarette, pushpit, and underseat volume.
I suggest if Hanse have not finalised deck box / seat designs I'd be asking them to try and make them as big as is possible whilst still looking good. One innovation they could add is seperate access / location for a liferaft? Also well worth taking time to plan and fit out your lazarette with shelving - its just so much more efficient than the 'pile it in' method we've adopted.
Hope this helps.
JOHN Edited by John Allison - 03 October 2006 at 11:10 |
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No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had!
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Brad McMaster
Commadore
Joined: 27 September 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 383 |
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Posted: 03 October 2006 at 12:23 |
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Hey, Yeah very valid points, I’ll be on to them asking for updates, and seeing the guys from Hamble in a couple of weeks. Hope it’s not too late!! The storage issue is one of the reasons I was interested in the Oceanis 50, you get a lot of ‘physical’ boat for your money there, i.e. an extra metre and that is mostly the forward sail locker that would swallow most of what you mention, its deep and well spaced. I guess the whole issue of storage is very much a personal decision, so long as the foundation of what you are buying, the hull mast and sails are all up to the standard required, and in the case of the 470, this seems like a pretty good price for the hull, mast and sails of this reputation. Would anyone disagree. In my case, it is just the two of us and we’d expect guests on the coastal cruising etc which leaves the aft port cabin to stock up. But a sail locker would be great!! |
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Alain & Anne
Rear Admiral
Joined: 13 December 2005 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 562 |
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Posted: 03 October 2006 at 13:17 |
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Hi guys,
At first let's try it.... but 30000 euros that's a lot of money and the difference is somewhere. Having use Harken gears for more than a decade and some 15000 milles on my own boat I can say that there are strong and reliable and at the end of the day a good investment! When sailing other boats with different makes I could not put Lewmar on the top; but it is not statistic, just my own experience. When I sailed the 461 I did not find the helm "very heavy". In fact the double helm with rack and pignon and without clutch gives a bit of inertia but manageable. The point is that a wire system is by construction less reliable but cheaper: and the question is how many 470 will sail blue water? About the Béneteau, I sailed an Oceanis 523 from France to Croatia last may. Big but heavy boat! That's an other story! Alain |
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UHAMBO 430e#004
White hull-teck deck-Yanmar 55hp-long range cruising OCC Our blog: www.uhambo.fr |
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Brad McMaster
Commadore
Joined: 27 September 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 383 |
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Posted: 03 October 2006 at 13:32 |
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Hi Alain, So are you suggesting the 470 is not suitable for blue water at all?? My dilemma is that whatever I buy I have to get it back to On the steering, again my point is that surely this (even with the Harken dif) can’t account for the 30k difference?? Clearly these little bits add up but I would have guessed is still some way off accounting for the discount. Cheers |
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John Allison
Rear Admiral
Joined: 23 November 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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Posted: 03 October 2006 at 14:50 |
Hi Brad,
I think we all know any boat of this size can handle the blue water bit with few issues - but some of that lower price might just be that Hanse now buy / use epoxy in greater volume than ever before - or maybe the new factory is overall cheaper to run?
Also, no doubts about this, epoxy build reduces construction time by as much as 20%! That's not just manpower - but extends to overall capital costs also.
So maybe on the 461 they did not factor in all the savings - but on the 470 they are?
Cheers
JOHN
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No longer a Hanse owner - but loved the one we had!
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Brad McMaster wrote: