Forestay removal-updated 4

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   Hi,
The Facnor LX200 furler has developed a problem, in that it sticks and jams until the furling line is cranked up bit like a cam going round hitting something.

I've spoken with the dealer here in the south of the UK who's very helpful and of course the stainless steel screws have long bonded to the aluminium foil, so I've bought a new foil and telescopic length at the bottom as no doubt the old will have to be cut off to remove it to enable me to see inside the drum to find the fault, suspect that the bearing has broken due to the jib becoming unfurled in heavy winds, but wont know till inspected.

The base fitting is a large bolt through the forestay and at the top is a split pin holding another pin, but how to ease the tension to enable pins/bolts to be removed?

I've eased the back stay and run a halyard down to the bow fitting plus the baby stay I fitted a couple of years ago is tensioned up to provide additional support to the mast, however the forestay still seems tight.  I'd like to be able to undo the bolt and withdraw it without load being placed on it.

Anyone removed the forestay?

Edited by JonB - 10 August 2021 at 19:01

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JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Forestay removal-updated 4 Posted: 29 June 2021 at 13:05
	Hi, The Facnor LX200 furler has developed a problem, in that it sticks and jams until the furling line is cranked up bit like a cam going round hitting something. I've spoken with the dealer here in the south of the UK who's very helpful and of course the stainless steel screws have long bonded to the aluminium foil, so I've bought a new foil and telescopic length at the bottom as no doubt the old will have to be cut off to remove it to enable me to see inside the drum to find the fault, suspect that the bearing has broken due to the jib becoming unfurled in heavy winds, but wont know till inspected. The base fitting is a large bolt through the forestay and at the top is a split pin holding another pin, but how to ease the tension to enable pins/bolts to be removed? I've eased the back stay and run a halyard down to the bow fitting plus the baby stay I fitted a couple of years ago is tensioned up to provide additional support to the mast, however the forestay still seems tight. I'd like to be able to undo the bolt and withdraw it without load being placed on it. Anyone removed the forestay? Edited by JonB - 10 August 2021 at 19:01
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 July 2021 at 22:50
	No takers so an updated for you. I've removed the back stay completely and replaced temporarily with two running back stays as replacements in the form of the main halyard and the toping lift, to the rear cleats. I eased the stays at the chain plates so they were hand lose and wobbled like mad, worrying when boats go past but ok. I've also the inner forestay I fitted a few years ago to support the mast, bow side, plus the code 0 halyard and once everything was relaxed, vang and main sheet, I could at last pull the forestay down 10-15mm (1/2") and the bolt slid out as hoped. With the jib halyard wound tight to take the weight of the furling foil I climbed the mast (although I did retighten the stays by hand first) to remove the split and gudgeon pins. This as you imagine still carried some weight and so the pin didn't come out without a fight and being this high up I didn't want to watch the splash beneath as my efforts exceeded the force required to remove it. I retained the pin and the forestay dropped about 50-60mm as the weight was taken up with the halyard. Back on the deck, I set up a series of lines so that the drum could be pulled forward on to the pontoon at the side and the top could be drawn away from the rigging, slowly I lowered the jib halyard and moved the drum along the pontoon, then it was time to draw the top of the forestay away from the rigging as well as move the drum forward. Eventually the top cleared the rigging and I was able to lower it to the pontoon. The red lines are the running backstays, the blue is the inner forestay I fitted for the J3. Now I've to cut through the aluminium as the bolts/screws are corroded together and send the drum back to the main dealer. The foil spins with ease around the forestay so it's the maintenance free bearings that have the issue. Hopefully I'll be told what that issue is, grease gone hard preventing the stainless steel bearings from rotating, or another failure maybe the casing but I don't have any signs of staining. With luck Facnor, will soon send me a replacement drum (once I've paid) as is their scheme and I can hoist it all back up into place. My next posting ought to be about tuning the standing rigging and trimming at sea! One thing at a time folks. Edited by JonB - 03 July 2021 at 13:56
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

H8jer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admiral Joined: 14 September 2010 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 1503	Post Options Post Reply Quote H8jer Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02 July 2021 at 06:02
	Hi Jonb You have displayed bravery like a real Norse King... Scary job.
	Hanse 370#487 30HP 3-cabin

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 July 2021 at 11:27
	When two different metals are in close contact it's known that galvanic corrosion will occur, so you have to ask why manufacturers choose to do so. With the no maintenance furling system being just that, when things do go wrong it takes a lot more effort to sort it out. A little bit of forethought could have gone into it so that the end user - you and me, stand a chance if we do need to separate the sections for any reason. The photo below is the lower foil and the telescopic section, with the bottom bolt sheared and the drill not touching the Stainless steel screwheads an issue becomes a problem. Luckily I thought this might be the case and ordered two new sections. Two Screws and an Allen bolt whose threads refused to budge The next task was to remove the furler from the foil, knowing that the bottom bolt, that sticks proud was already seized the only option was to cut the telescopic section and withdraw the forestay. This is when I discovered that there is a plastic 'bearing' insert at the bottom of the section too, this had to be drilled out to enable the removal of the forestay. Finally off, I had to separate to get to the acrylic bush under the lower telescopic section Finally, it was a matter of cutting out the remaining foil section left attached to the insert and removing the two screws again. This time I just hack sawed them off and ground down the remaining upstands of the screws, to be flush. I'll not bother trying to drill these out, as the shape of the foil and its' inserts are such that a dab of two pack 'glue' to hold will take the rotational forces especially when the jib is also adding its binding action as it get wrapped. This was my array of temporary (and permanent) forestays, the stay sail (J3); the jib halyard split to both cleats and the code 0/gennaker halyard at the bow fitting. Edited by JonB - 05 July 2021 at 11:29
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

richarddaltry Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Joined: 29 August 2020 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 26	Post Options Post Reply Quote richarddaltry Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 July 2021 at 07:43
	Hi Jon, very impressed you have managed this yourself. I have had to get our furler foil repaired after somehow damaging the top with a halyard wrap. Initially suspected the top swivel of the furler but suspect user error is the main cause. I went to a good local rigger and they refused to drop forestay as they didn't feel comfortable supporting the mast with a halyard. To be fair I don't have an inner forestay so could only have run one halyard. So at the moment the whole rig is off to get it sorted. I have a question you or someone may be able to help with. Does the 470 also have the sparcraft mast that the 461 has? I'm trying to get hold of the factory specified forestay length for the 461 and wondered if your mast is the same if you have the forestay length? Our rig was raked aft quite a way and so we're trying to work out if that was right or not. She has been sailing with a nice balance so suspect fine but keen to see if others are as raked. Many thanks, Rich.

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 July 2021 at 09:02
	Hi Rich, As a Civil Engineer we are trained to think logically and it can be a pain, I'm sure if I had a different vocation I would not have attempted it. It was a matter of working through who, what & where the forces are and likely to be and how I could compensate for them, I think it was Einstein who said for every action there's a reaction, I also had a pain in the *rse lecturer at college many moons ago who drilled it in! Yes, ours is a Sparcraft too and a fractional rig, I have a copy of their rigging manual, which hands up I didn't read from cover to cover but it was useful to refer to, especially having removed the backstay and I still couldn't withdraw the bolt as it had tension from the forestay on it. Again the 470 doesn't have an inner forestay either, I fitted that myself too and strengthened the forward baulk head to spread the loads, see an early 'winter maintenance plus' article. As for the forestay length, that is my next job whilst I wait for the replacement Facnor furlers, I've decided to replace both top and bottom, whilst I've the rig down, makes sense. So as soon as I've measured it from centre of hole to hole of the end fittings, I'll post the numbers. I shall read the manual on trimming at sea as you always find, or we do, that sailing on one tack seems better than the other, but I might wait until I'm clear of the Solent and its effects on winds. It could be that the weight of the galley, fridge, cooker etc is lighter than the non-central batteries and electrical equipment on the port-side. I hope Hanse would've considered this in their design. Edited by JonB - 06 July 2021 at 09:05
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

richarddaltry Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Joined: 29 August 2020 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 26	Post Options Post Reply Quote richarddaltry Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 July 2021 at 18:29
	Hi Jon, It would be very helpful to see the length you have and compare with what we have. I just had a conversation with Phil at Inspiration and he checked the IMS certs for a 461 and 470 and most of the values were exactly the same suggesting there is a good chance it's an identical rig. He is also asking the factory riggers for a forestay length. Hopefully they have it in the records from back in 2006 (for the 461). I have also noticed the feeling of one tack being better than the other. My suspicions is it's probably the wind instrument being slightly off or maybe the log impeller reading slightly differently on each tack but as you point out, could well be some sort of asymmetry in the rig setup. I also spoke to Adrian, the Facnor dealer today and it's worth noting he said the top swivel design has been improved a fair bit in the last 3-4 years, especially under load with some new bearing internals in the last year or two. I have already received a new one from him and it feels the same as the old one but suspect it is worth the change for peace of mind. Thanks.

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: 06 July 2021 at 19:01
	Adrian said the same to me, but I finding difficult to twist without quite a bit of force! I'm not sure when I'll next get to the boat to measure the forestay, I'm hoping Thursday, if I manage to complete some contract drawings ready for issue Monday
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

JonB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rear Admiral Joined: 21 September 2010 Location: Cowes Status: Offline Points: 504	Post Options Post Reply Quote JonB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 July 2021 at 19:13
	Hi Richard, The forestay length from centre of hole in the end fitting to the same the other end is 20.4m, that is for our 2007 470e It's upper end is back up and just waiting for the new furler to be shipped from France, fingers crossed they all don't disappear on their summer break before sending it .
	Jon B 470e http://www.norse-king.blogspot.co.uk

richarddaltry Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Joined: 29 August 2020 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 26	Post Options Post Reply Quote richarddaltry Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 July 2021 at 08:31
	Hi Jon, many thanks. So it turned out my forestay was 60mm too long explaining the rig being raked aft so far. Phil at Inspiration Marine managed to get the original spec from the factory riggers. 20.48m eye to eye. Close to your measurement but maybe the 470 and 461 are very slightly different rigs. I should have the rig back on later this week. It has been way too long in the middle of the season! Hope you have got your furler and forestay back on?



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