445 - three difficult issues

Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic

   Hi,

In May this year we picked up our new Hanse 445 in Greifswald and sailed home to Sweden, following some days of testing and adjustments. I am new to Hanse (and to this forum) and would like to start with saying that the boat was all I hoped for - the beautiful lines, the easy maneuvering, fast in light winds, comfort for the family …

However, my first encounter with Hanse also brought up some issues that I did not hope for - or at least did not expect.

Since this is my first own +40 feet boat (in this size I've only rented Bavaria 46) I hope for some tips and/or forum links related to the following three issues:

1. Mainsail jam
I have an in-mast furling system with Z spar rig and Elvstrom sails including vertical battens. For some days ago, the mainsail got jammed when I tried to unfurl. I only got it out half a metre. Yes, I admit that the last furling - conducted single handed in very windy conditions, with the sail flapping when going in - was not according to the manual on Z-spars homepage:  "Maintaining a light tension on the outhaul, furl the sail with the wind ahead. A slight pressure from the wind will avoid creases in the sail."
However, I've never experienced (with Seldén rigs) that the mainsail gets totally jammed in the entrance, without possibility to fix it in port. Now, a number of vertical battens in the bottom of the sail have been jammed in the mast entrance and the roll now refuses to move in or out. 
My dealer said that Seldén masts - previously standard on Hanse - are designed with a more extensive entrance. He also told med that Hanse now, for unknown reasons, will turn back to equip with Seldén again.
This small note on the Z Spars homepage did not lighten me up: "PLEASE NOTE: We do not recommend sails with vertical battens for our in-mast furling spars." http://www.zsparsuk.com/furlingmasts.htm

2. Fresh water inside the boat
During the test sailing with Hanse's handover guy, we found water in the bilge. Actually, a lot of water. The handover man suspected the rudder stock entrance and three factory workers came out and did some plastic refit. The production line manager, however, did not really believe in that explanation. He was right. During my voyage home I found new water in the bilge. It I turned out that the entire fresh water tank (filled 100 %) had been emptied in the boat and the fresh water pump was making noise. Making 10 knots in a gale we had not heard anything of this up in the cockpit. Back in Sweden my dealer tried to localize the problem. We could not find any leakage. But the dealer showed me how the deck shower could, at least in theory, cause this problem, if you put it back into the hull opening without having secured it.

3. Bow thruster hatch gone
When leaving a distant port this summer the bow thruster refused to work. Something, probably waste, was stopping the hatch from closing the last centimeters. I had no snorkel mask, so with the hatch slightly open I turned back home on the dealer's advice. There, I dived under the boat and saw that the hatch was gone. I gave the bow thruster box a small push. It now works properly, but my hull hatch is gone. "Impossible", the Hanse shipyard commented. "A fabrication error", a very experienced local marine engineer said.

Sorry for all these words. I'm grateful for any feedback.

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
ChrisStockholm Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Sub Lieutenant Joined: 28 July 2013 Location: Stockholm Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote ChrisStockholm Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: 445 - three difficult issues Posted: 29 July 2013 at 11:13
	Hi, In May this year we picked up our new Hanse 445 in Greifswald and sailed home to Sweden, following some days of testing and adjustments. I am new to Hanse (and to this forum) and would like to start with saying that the boat was all I hoped for - the beautiful lines, the easy maneuvering, fast in light winds, comfort for the family … However, my first encounter with Hanse also brought up some issues that I did not hope for - or at least did not expect. Since this is my first own +40 feet boat (in this size I've only rented Bavaria 46) I hope for some tips and/or forum links related to the following three issues: 1. Mainsail jam I have an in-mast furling system with Z spar rig and Elvstrom sails including vertical battens. For some days ago, the mainsail got jammed when I tried to unfurl. I only got it out half a metre. Yes, I admit that the last furling - conducted single handed in very windy conditions, with the sail flapping when going in - was not according to the manual on Z-spars homepage: "Maintaining a light tension on the outhaul, furl the sail with the wind ahead. A slight pressure from the wind will avoid creases in the sail." However, I've never experienced (with Seldén rigs) that the mainsail gets totally jammed in the entrance, without possibility to fix it in port. Now, a number of vertical battens in the bottom of the sail have been jammed in the mast entrance and the roll now refuses to move in or out. My dealer said that Seldén masts - previously standard on Hanse - are designed with a more extensive entrance. He also told med that Hanse now, for unknown reasons, will turn back to equip with Seldén again. This small note on the Z Spars homepage did not lighten me up: "PLEASE NOTE: We do not recommend sails with vertical battens for our in-mast furling spars." http://www.zsparsuk.com/furlingmasts.htm 2. Fresh water inside the boat During the test sailing with Hanse's handover guy, we found water in the bilge. Actually, a lot of water. The handover man suspected the rudder stock entrance and three factory workers came out and did some plastic refit. The production line manager, however, did not really believe in that explanation. He was right. During my voyage home I found new water in the bilge. It I turned out that the entire fresh water tank (filled 100 %) had been emptied in the boat and the fresh water pump was making noise. Making 10 knots in a gale we had not heard anything of this up in the cockpit. Back in Sweden my dealer tried to localize the problem. We could not find any leakage. But the dealer showed me how the deck shower could, at least in theory, cause this problem, if you put it back into the hull opening without having secured it. 3. Bow thruster hatch gone When leaving a distant port this summer the bow thruster refused to work. Something, probably waste, was stopping the hatch from closing the last centimeters. I had no snorkel mask, so with the hatch slightly open I turned back home on the dealer's advice. There, I dived under the boat and saw that the hatch was gone. I gave the bow thruster box a small push. It now works properly, but my hull hatch is gone. "Impossible", the Hanse shipyard commented. "A fabrication error", a very experienced local marine engineer said. Sorry for all these words. I'm grateful for any feedback.

Mark&Catherine Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admiral Joined: 18 January 2013 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 1219	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mark&Catherine Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: 29 July 2013 at 12:15
	Hi Chris, I cant help you with the main, I didn't go for in mast. I know my deck shower sometimes leaks if I rely on the button on the head, so i have to swich it off using the tap. We were told that the hatch on the bow thruster will come off if you move at more than 6 knotts with it down, and we have no alarm to say that it is still down. Several times I have been worried because i failed to retract the thruster before setting off. I am thinking of finding a way to generate an alarm if the thruster is down and speed is above 4 knotts or something.
	385 ubulukutu sail number GBR 3350L in Turkey and Greece with Mark and Catherine

ChrisStockholm Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Sub Lieutenant Joined: 28 July 2013 Location: Stockholm Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote ChrisStockholm Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 July 2013 at 16:21
	Thanks Mark&Catherine for this information. It makes the desk shower theory stronger and I forgot to write that the major part of the water was found in the aft, also pointing in the same direction. When it comes to the thruster I will never leave a port again if I am not sure about the status of the hatch. I did 10 hours with an average speed of 8 kts, so after having seen the hatch construction, it's obvious for me that it can't stand against that force.

pideas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Joined: 11 September 2011 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 28	Post Options Post Reply Quote pideas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 July 2013 at 16:43
	Which manufacturer Bowthruster you have? We have Bow- and Sternthruster from Max-Power. If Bowthruster more than 10 minutes not in use, it retracts automatically. We are in the second season and have not had problems with the system. The water pump we always turn off when sailing and when not in use.
	Sailing is a Passion, ex Hanse 445, now Moody DS 54 H445#74

ChrisStockholm Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Sub Lieutenant Joined: 28 July 2013 Location: Stockholm Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote ChrisStockholm Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 July 2013 at 17:13
	Thanks Pideas. As far as I remember (not in the boat now) I have a Quick Bowthruster. The dealer said that the thruster will not retract if something is blocking it. Turning off the fresh water pump seems as a good idea.

High Time Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Vice Admiral Joined: 04 September 2012 Location: Portsmouth UK Status: Offline Points: 819	Post Options Post Reply Quote High Time Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: 29 July 2013 at 17:31
	Hi Chris Welcome to the Forum. Sorry to hear about your 3 problems but, sad to say, no new boat is completely free of problems. Taking them in order here's my 5 cents worth Furling Main. I have this option on my 415 with vertical battens in a Z Spars rig, but with a North mainsail. Mine jammed slightly during the handover test sail but a quick in and out freed it. I was told it would get easier once the 'newness' of the sail had worn off. Of course, it didn't so I had North sails rep come and have a look. He thought it was the stainless steel attachments at the bottom of each batten twisting and catching across the slot.. These were designed to take the round batten and finish in a flat strip, in theory to minimise the thickness at the bottom of each batten, which wasn't happening when they twisted. He took the sail away and removed the SS bits, replacing just with a full length round batten. He also advised that furling should be done on starboard tack with slight wind pressure in the sail. This keeps the battens away from the edge of the slot. Since then, I have had no problems. Freshwater inside the boat. I had a freshwater problem a few weeks ago (see http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7597&title=loose-pipe ) but, fortunately, we were in harbour and on board so very little water escaped before the source was identified. When you have water in the tank and turn on the pump how often does it 'tick'? If the system is watertight, it shouldn't tick at all, of course. The frequency of the tick gives an indication of the size of the leak. If it ticks once evey couple of seconds or so then it is a sizeable leak and it might be possible to hear the water running somewhere inside the boat. This is how we tracked down my problem - but it was like a tap running flat out! If it is not the deck shower then maybe it is one of the connections in the heads. The only way to track it down, though, is to trace each pipe and see if any of the connections are wet. However, if it is not immediately obvious then you should get your dealer to sort it out - you are still under warranty, I assume. Bowthruster. I have a Quick thruster which works very well but it is a constant worry to have to remember to 'park' it before proceeding above 3 knots. I have forgotten to do this a couple of times but, touch wood, no damage has been done. As Pideas says these thrusters are designed to self park if unused for a few minutes. In my case I believe it is 5, or maybe 6, minutes. When anticipating I might need to use it, I keep giving it a quick 'blip' to stop it self parking! I would be very interested in an automatic alarm above 3 knots to remove the constant worry, as suggested by Mark. I have even thought of putting something visible over the throttle lever when the thruster is down but an automatic audible warning would be much better! Good luck getting your problems sorted out. If your dealer is good then they should give you full support during warranty.
	Roger High Time (415 #038)

ChrisStockholm Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Sub Lieutenant Joined: 28 July 2013 Location: Stockholm Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote ChrisStockholm Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 July 2013 at 05:59
	Thanks! Very valuable information about the main - I will forward it to my local rig expert. No ticking from my freshwater pump. Having read about your pump issues, I will also be more active in closing seacocks when away from the boat.

High Time Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Vice Admiral Joined: 04 September 2012 Location: Portsmouth UK Status: Offline Points: 819	Post Options Post Reply Quote High Time Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 July 2013 at 12:07
	Hi Chris If there is no ticking from your pump then the leak must be on the low pressure side of the pump i.e. between the tank and the pump. This is usually a very short run and should be easy to check. If the leak is on the other (pressurized) side of the pump then you would hear an occasional tick (or burrrr) from the pump as it replaces the pressure lost by the leak.
	Roger High Time (415 #038)

John K Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Lieutenant Commander Joined: 08 November 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 73	Post Options Post Reply Quote John K Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: 30 July 2013 at 13:48
	Hi Chris There was considerable discussion on In Mast Furling in the 575 forum with some photos, I put in some of our 445 set up but we have a Selden rig. Similarly we had North's on board at one time and they recommended furling with the boom out to starboard assuming the battens are on the port side. At the very least trying to keep tension on the outhaul, difficult two up, single handed almost impossible. Need motor running to maintain forward motion, and engage the self steering otherwise do not have enough hands. The reason to furl with sail out to starboard is to stop the battens catching on the mast slot as the sail furls, people have been known to rip the battens out of the sail in the past (not on Hanses to my knowledge I should add). We did recently have a jamb but it was due to the foot of the luff having come of the fitting inside the mast. We freed it by working the in and out furling lines back and forth it freed it enough to enable it to be unfurled. Then found what caused it and secured it before we furled. We have a syndicate shared boat and somebody must have released the tension in the main halyard and then retightened it without realising the foot was now free. Water, again there has been much discussion over time and listening for the pump is important. If we leave ours on overnight we get a couple of pumps and that's it which is less than I would have expected from a secure system, so far no problem. Just about every hose clip has leaked at some time on Hanses and I expect every other production boat of any make, but Hanse do now make them more secure, check you have two clips on each connector. One other problem that 445's seem to experience, but have seen nothing in the forum, is a number of boats have managed to knock an end fitting off the self tacker traveller track. It is secured with only one bolt and ours just sheared off, and I know of two other Australian owned 445's that have had the problem. Whether a bad batch of bolts not to spec no idea, maybe an extra rubber bumper is needed. It happens when going downwind as there is a lot of pressure on the rig and about 20° either side of dead downwind the sail has a tendency to flip from side to side, has to be watched closely or as some have suggested run an additional line outboard to hold the headsail out or pole it out. You may also find a wear patch needed on the headsail against where it can rub on the navigation lights. Problems of a deck sweeper jib with below deck furler. Enjoy your boat, I am sure the initial problems will soon be resolved. John
	<font color=BLUE>Former part owner 445 Four Four Fun, Pittwater, Sydney, Australia.[/COLOR]

ChrisStockholm Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Sub Lieutenant Joined: 28 July 2013 Location: Stockholm Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote ChrisStockholm Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 31 July 2013 at 06:45
	Hi John, Thank you for this detailed info. Now I also have to check the foot on my sail - if it's still in the fitting in the mast. I know that some of my guests onboard by mistake have released the halyard, mixing the ropes up with the mainsheet. The weak fitting on the self traveller track sounds as something we should report to Greifswald (even if I suspect your dealer in Australia has done it, I've heard that you have a quite active Hanse community down under ). Just to make a clarification regarding my pump and leakage: The pump is silent and works fine. I don't have any leakage currently. It's just that I still don't know (for 100 %) what caused the system to spill out water during BOTH the test sailing day and my trip home. I've seen how the deck shower could do this. So I suppose that's it. It feels great to be a part of this forum, with so many helping hands from all over the world. Cheers, Chris



Welcome to myHanse.com the forum for Hanse Yachts owners throughout the world.