Racing 470 or 461

 

Welcome to the site.  I've done some sailing in SE Asia years past - including one Fremantle to Bali 10 days on a Farr 1020.

 

I also like the Sydneys.  Top boat.

 

We've no rating on our 461 but would also like to see the numbers if anyone gets one measured - but we gave up club / class racing quite a few years back.

 

However, Sue tells me I still 'race' every other boat we pass - but that's about the extent of it - but the 461 and assume 470's are very very quick.

 

But to be honest about flat out racing - the gear set up which works oh so well for two hands - is not IMHO the best for a race crew. 

 

For example, the secondary winches which most would use to trim spinnakers are too far aft for anyone inside the cockpit to use continually in a comfortable manner. 

 

They are beautifully placed for me behind the wheel to tweak once in a while - but simply not positioned well for a race crew to access from in front of the wheels.

 

Also the instrumentation they'd want to view for trimming is all also best set behind the wheels - wrong spot for race crew members even though ideal for helmsman!

 

Plus the self tacking headsail - hard (OK lets say impossible) to trim on its own track (and I'd suggest second choice over a regular genoa if you'd want to win light air races).

 

So to kind of answer the question.  No, we don't race.  Anymore.

 

Our code 0 is only to blast to windward in lighter winds or reach / run in fresher stuff and leave the likes of cruising Farr 50's in our wake.  Or as once happened, to scare the occassional Farr 40 race boat with crew stacked on the top edge.  Good fun stuff - highly effective sail by Quantum.  

 

So good luck with whatever you get.  Any Q's on the 461 always happy to  respond with my views.

 

Cheers

JOHN 

 

 

Singapore Bill wrote: Hi John,   Thanks for your detailed reply - very much appreciated!   I've been pondering the set-up and you've hit on a couple of key points for me. Yes, fantastic 2-hander yacht - which is a big part of the equantion for me - but I think with a little re-config we could rig the cockpit for proper spinnaker control.   Where do you currently run your code zero sheets?   Response.  We located D's on our toe rail midpoint (just before gate) to take our brace / guy blocks for our spinnaker.  We located two more D's right aft with blocks so we could lead spinnaker sheets to either primary or secondary winches.  We use those spinnaker lines for our Code 0 also - trimming on the brace when reaching, and trimming on the sheets when beating.  Be aware there are metal plates (assume alloy) built in to tap and drill at specific points along the toerail - Hanse must have drawings showing locations.   In your opinion, is there somewhere near the pushpits to clip a spin block and is there then a clear path to the coachroof for some two-speed winches? The lack of detailed photos on the www makes judging this difficult (and no dealer near me with one in stock).   Response.  If by coachroof you mean cabintop - suspect you'll not get a fairlead to any block fixed to the toerail / side of the boat.  Not sure on a 470 - which unlike the 461 does not have any ties from its cabintop down to the floor -  you'd want to mount hefty winches there either. Easy soloution if you want to sort race crew is simply move the secondaries further forward on the side cockpit moulding - I suspect 12 inches would do it fine. Some clever planning with the 470 might see you able to lead leeward lines over to windward winches for trimming - always good if it can be done.   I notice the Beneteau First 50 has coachroof winches but I think the Hanse 470 will be a faster yacht up/down the racecourse given the massive rig and more racing-originated lines.   Response.  I'd have a £50 bet on that one with anyone.   Plus the mainsail control set-up of the Bene50 leaves me puzzled - no traveller and a massive pedestal winch on the middle of the cockpit sole.   Does anyone think a traveller track could be mounted where the two current fixed blocks are? Really need a traveller if any racing is to happen... and no penalty on IRC for adding one I believe.   Response.  IMHO forget it.  The boom kicker is strong and well capeable of holding down the boom when dumped - and to get value from a traveller anyway - you'd want it running from side deck to side deck.  Would look aweful.  But do check out the kicker / boom flange.  Ours was dry wleded and gave up arond 2,000 miles out - easy enough to fix and beef up.   I agree the self-tacker would be bad in an IRC race - despite the huge credit the RORC would give (in addition to the furler credit). I thought a 110% to 115% North 3DL all purpose jib (vertically battened furling) might be the go for regattas.   Response. Agreed although if racing with crew - why not have a regualr 3DL in cruiser cloth when on vacation - and a set of laminate sails to change as you see fit?    Re: instruments, I was thinking of B&Gs instead of Simard or Raymarine and mounting a some 20/20 repeaters on the mast below the gooseneck and one FFD somewhere further forward in the cockpit for crew control.   Response.  Sounds like you've an open budget.  I too like Jumbos but remember the rod kicker will obstruct any fitted to the mast.  And where forward in the cockpit for crew?   On a related topic - does anyone have the polar speed projections for the 470e? Would be very interested in seeing these - especially some spinnaker projections.   Response.  I got one from Hanse UK when evaluating a gennaker v cruising Quantum chute.  Threw them out as both polars showed exactly the same result - which was a nonsense.   Lastly, has anyone thought of dropping a carbon stick in the 470e instead of the tin rig? At over 24 m the current rig must weigh heaps (anyon know how much?). Just a thought - the centre of effort would be significantly lowered with the carbon rig and in bigger air she would probably need reefing a bit later.   Response.  Nooooooooo.  Never thought of that one.  I do know one 531 in Italy has such a rig and believe it moves out - but have no idea of differences in rig weight or righting moments.   Thanks again John. Cheers,   Bill

Edited by John Allison - 08 March 2007 at 16:24

 

I have been following your terrific discussion with John and Sue, who have great knowledge and experience of all sorts of boats and sailing.  I wear two hats, so have to explain my involvement.

 

I am Sales Manager at Hanse Yachts UK Ltd, but also a keen and experienced racing sailor/coach in dinghies and yachts.  In fact, in 1973 I raced GP14 dinghies at Red Roofs sailing club at the naval base that was on the north side of Singapore island!  I would be very happy to discuss boat specification matters with you on colin@hanseyachts.co.uk if you wish.

 

With respect - I think you are in danger of falling back into the 'arms race' that you say you want to get away from.  Let's go back to basics...

 

Hanse build innovative cost-effective cruising boats, primarily for short-handed sailing.

 

However, the Judel/Vrolijk designs used by Hanse Yachts are quick - as John rightly says [in fact I believe that is one of the reasons he bought his 461].  Hanses are competitive across the range and sail well to their handicaps - IRC or local.  There are many owners enjoying their club racing all over the world.

 

I know of only one 461 that has been IRC rated and it was given 1.087 by RORC.

 

My advice would be to take the boat for what she is and the advantageous handicap that can be achieved - don't try to change her into something she isn't!!  Yes, higher technology headsails will definately improve the performance for racing, especially in light and heavy winds.  Maybe compromise your desire offwind with an easily handled asymmetric.

 

Don't worry about mainsheet tracks or carbon rigs and the like.  Accept the fittings layout for the compromise it has to be and develop it once you have sailed the boat for a while - I'm afraid the factory is not set up to customise a boat for you [and frankly not interested], but dealers fulfill that role.

 

Come and sail our demo 470e when you can and we will happily advise you on what is possible.  I am confident you won't be disappointed.

 

Yours in yachting

Ferret

Does anyone know where to find the ratings of a 531 / 540.

 

 

 

 

Hi Gents,

 

The person to speak to is Jenny Howells at the RORC. She manages all of the ratings. And if you ever want to chat with her she spends time everyday on www.sailinganarchy.com - great website for asking questions about anything and if you're not interested in asking anything it is immensely entertaining regardless (I'm not associated with apart from spending too much time there). Jenny goes by the online name of Jen.

 

Will reply to the other posts above in detail when I get time (after biz travel).

 

Rgds,

 

Bill

(in SFO airport)