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lithium and agm batteries: a warning !

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32mike View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 32mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2025 at 13:38
Originally posted by Pzucchel Pzucchel wrote:

as usual , Leon is right. I think there is a battery combiner, called in the schematics batterie combiner 8K1, that should disconnect the engine battery from the service bus in certain conditions  first trivial question: where is it ? second trivial question: what model is it and how it works? what's the impact of replacing lead batteries with lithium: will it still work?

Yes, there is a battery combiner - here is the one I have. Like Marsella said, it is installed in the battery compartment, right between the service batteries and the positive bus bar.



now I also understand why Leon insists on moving the alternator to the service battery. the battery combiner may separate the alternator from the service battery, making recharging the service battery when the service battery goes down impossible with the engine. still , in my boat solar panels and generator will charge it.

The battery combiner will still work as advertised whether the alternator is connected to the start battery or the service bank even with lithium service batteries. There are four potential problems though that arise with lithiums installed. First, the lithiums can charge at a much higher rate than AGM’s and they can overload and overheat the alternator. Second, the lithiums charge profile for lithiums is different than AGM’s. Third, if, you remove the combiner and separate the two banks, you need to manage the charging in a different way than the simple combiner. This is usually accomplished with some version of a Dc-Dc charger between the banks - it is a one way switch and can be set for the correct charge profile. Fourth, the lithiums have a BMS, either internal or external which controls things like charging and if the BMS decides to cut off charging while the alternator is producing a significant amp load, you can get a “load dump” which can ruin the alternator. 
So, you can leave the alternator on the start battery and charge the lithium bank with a Dc-Dc - this protects the alternator but limits your service bank charging to 30-50 amps and it also limits charging of the start battery to only when the engine is running. Or you can move the alternator to the service bank and charge the start battery with a Dc-Dc from the service bank. In this setup you will now have start battery charging anytime the service bank is being charged. The big drawbacks are that the alternator is now not being protected from overdrawing overheating from the lithium bank and if the BMS decides to shut off charging, the alternator and DC load bus is not protected from a “load dump” which can damage the alternator and other electronic devices. The most common way of solving this is through an external alternator regulator controlled by the BMS. The regulator keeps it from overheating and the BMS will shut down the alternator properly through the regulator without getting a “load dump.”

in practice, what does it mean to move the alternator onto the service battery: deploy 200A cables from the engine room to the service battery?

As Marsella said, this cable is already in place if you elect to modify. A cable runs from the alternator already to the combiner right next to the battery. It could then be connected either to a Dc-Dc charger to the service positive bus bar or directly to the service bus bar depending on how you wish to construct your system.
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marsella Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2025 at 14:12
My understanding is that DCDC should go into engine room or close, where another end of the alternator cables are now connected to the engine bat. Thats where DCDC should be inserted. I think engine room is not a good location becaue it gets hot and DCDC gets hot, but somewhere around it. 

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32mike View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 32mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2025 at 15:13
Originally posted by marsella marsella wrote:

My understanding is that DCDC should go into engine room or close, where another end of the alternator cables are now connected to the engine bat. Thats where DCDC should be inserted. I think engine room is not a good location becaue it gets hot and DCDC gets hot, but somewhere around it. 


For the Victron Dc-Dc, the manuals say to mount close to but not above the battery (which is a lead acid thing with potential off-gassing). Heat is an issue. The smaller 30 amp units apparently get very hot and many people in vans and boats installed ventilation fans. The newer 50 amp units don’t get as hot but the manual says it can get up to 90C and to mount on a surface that can withstand that temperature.
Mike
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Arcadia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2025 at 15:38
Piero, the combiner activates based on a threshold voltage of about 13.2 v. So the service bank will not engage until the engine battery reaches 13.2. So often when the much larger service bank engages, the voltage can then drop back below threshold and will open the combiner. This cycle can repeat over and over if the service bank is heavily discharged. Bad design !!  
Leon / ARCADIA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2025 at 15:48
There is heavy cable that brings the charge current from the alternator to the combiner near the positive bus bar. You can repurpose that cable as a direct connection. I then moved my combiner to a location near the engine battery to control its charge. No more cycling. The combiner won’t engage until the service bank reaches a good charge level. 
Leon / ARCADIA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arcadia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2025 at 15:57
Also forgot to mention. My combiner no longer uses threshold voltage. There is a separate trigger input that will activate the combiner. I ran a trigger voltage from the engine blower and also from my battery charger so that the combiner will engage whenever charging takes place. 
Leon / ARCADIA
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32mike View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 32mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2025 at 16:30
Originally posted by Arcadia Arcadia wrote:

Piero, the combiner activates based on a threshold voltage of about 13.2 v. So the service bank will not engage until the engine battery reaches 13.2. So often when the much larger service bank engages, the voltage can then drop back below threshold and will open the combiner. This cycle can repeat over and over if the service bank is heavily discharged. Bad design !!  

I think it works fine with AGM’s on both sides of it. There is built in delays for connect and disconnect. It engages at 13.2v and disconnects at either 12.8 after 60 seconds or 11.8 after 4 seconds. I would also think, that with the alternator running and putting out good amperage, even the discharged lithium bank wouldn’t pull the voltage down below 12.8 for a solid minute, but I could be mistaken on that. In any case, this is really an AGM device. Most lithium designs these days don’t incorporate a battery combiner at all. I’ve even seen setups where people completely separate their AGM start battery from their lithium service bank just to simplify things.

I think the big stumbling blocks with adding lithium to our previous all-AGM boats is the different chemistries/ charge profiles and the fact that the alternators were designed for lead/acid batteries - they don’t have lithium charge profiles built in and they don’t have an installed shutoff that the new lithium BMS can activate when needed to safely cut off the charge under any circumstances. So, we need to start jury-rigging things by adding or subtracting devices to overcome the stumbling blocks. I’m still struggling with the possibilities with an eye for keeping it as simple as possible while still covering all bases with the minimum of modifications and money spent. It’s a challenge!

Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marsella Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2025 at 18:45
Originally posted by Arcadia Arcadia wrote:

Also forgot to mention. My combiner no longer uses threshold voltage. There is a separate trigger input that will activate the combiner. I ran a trigger voltage from the engine blower and also from my battery charger so that the combiner will engage whenever charging takes place. 

I think one can just replace the combiner with a solenoid, something like Lewmar el.winch contactor would have a right amperage for this. In this case as long as BMS allows charging sources, the contactor is closed, and the alternator charges the service bank. When BMS signals to stop charging, the contactor will just open. 


Edited by marsella - 06 July 2025 at 18:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pzucchel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2025 at 09:53
update: I confirm I do have a battery splitter. it's a different model from the ones described here , it's the mastervolt chargemate 2502 and it does sit nearby the service battery compartment bus.

you can see the manual here : it's configured in automatic mode.


It seems it has histeresis and delay features preventing flipping on and off, and very interestingly one could both wire a manual switch , overriding the off position allowing to start on the service battery , and even an indicator /czone information to know what's happening without taking the sofaaway ...

I checked all the cables , and I confirm whatever had been said above by 32mike, Marsella and Arcadia.

in my system I have two additions: 2x mppt, on the service bus , charging the service battery, and another battery that's used to start the generator.

in particular , the agm generator service battery is completely in parallel of the engine battery. there is no battery splitter. I was puzzled by this : when I had the problem I couldn't start the engine , but I could start the generator. this is probably simply because the crank requirements are lighter. then , I realise I have an old agm battery in parallel to a new one : I'm sure it's a bad idea , the new battery may be continuously discharging into the old one ...

going back to my original problem , I start suspecting that the sequence of events  was:  the service battery went below 13v, it disconnected from the engine battery and the generator battery. then the engine battery discharged partially even if fed by the generator battery (higher internal resistance because of lower CCA) ...and both couldn't provide the cranking current. when I started the generator , the splitter went on and the 10kWh lithium batteries covered the engine battery problem...

now I need surely to replace the engine battery , it shows some sulfation signs on the contacts . 

..and now I know that I can overwrite the battery splitter and use the service batteries to start the engine!

as a last piece of information , I even have 2x masterbus controlled isolators (ml-rbs from ocean systems) on the lithium batteries: they are programmable with masteradjust, and I currently use it for last resort discharge below 10% and thermal limit. it rarely happens , and I think this is what is described here as a abyc requirement.

ultimately , I could redesign the system ...but admittedly it worked flawlessly for 4 years , up to the moment the engine battery got old (the battery was used for 5 years ) so you could understand my hesitation: don't break what works ! 


I know the current limitations now:

1) agm batteries , generator and engine , aren't optimally using ideal bulk/abs/float timings and voltages...but this deserves another thread, because the differences been lfp and agm settings are not very big.

2) the two agm batteries are in parallel without a split. is this what I want/like ? the two batteries aren't identical in capacity...

3) potentially and theoretically, the lithium batteries could disconnect from the alternator when the engine is running creating load jumps that may affect the alternator. admittedly , this should happen only on very rare situations, and the BMS should anyway have priority because of safety






Edited by Pzucchel - 07 July 2025 at 16:46
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