Racing 470 or 461

Hi All

I am a new member and am enjoying all the advice & observations from John & others on the forum. Bill, it sounds like we are in a very similar position.

This thread especially interests me as I too am still yet to make a decision on a new yacht, I thought I had made a decision on a new 470, I went to our recent sail expo down here in Sydney, our first look in the flesh at a new 470 & then I looked at a new Beneteau Oceanis 50 whilst there, not really what I am after, I would prefer a more performance oriented boat, but the quality of finish was far better than I remember from a few years ago and that got me rethinking things. I think the level of detail & finish is better on the Beneteau then the Hanse.

Got talking to the Benetau rep and then heard about the new First 50, I researched that over the net & I am very impressed with this boat, First Series have always been performance oriented and the contemporary interior fit out really appeals to my wife and I. The specs & numbers seem similar between 470 & First 50.

The reason the 470 origially appealed to us was her inherant performance design, ease of sailing short handed and her contempory fitout below.

I raced 2 tonners way back for a number of years, so still have the desire to have a performance boat, that I can club race, whilst still being able to comfortably take the family, we have 2 small children 9 & 7, along for weekends etc.

This thread has made me rethink things again, I had started to head more towards the First 50, I am now more open minded again. I am heading out for a test sail on the 470 either next week or the next, the first of the Beneteau First 50's arrives in Sydney next month, at which time I will naturally go for a test sail on that also.

I would appreciate any further debate on the pros & cons of each that anyone has to offer, especially related to the performance of each and how the 470 might be tweaked, especially given its lack of optioned dedicated spinnaker winches or another location for 2nd primary winches. Our local dealer is heading over to Hanse next month & is going to ask how this issue may best be overcome.

Look forward to hearing further on your thoughts Bill after further research.

cheers
Peter

Hi Bill

I think you are right with some of your observations and have commented again in your reponses below:

1) no traveller on the mainsheet - how can you race a 50-footer w/o a traveller?! not sure what the Bene boys were thinking here;

    - I guess it was the compromise between cruise/race, although I agree with you 100%, I will ask our local guys for a comment back from Bene

2) mainsheet winch stuck in the middle of the cockpit - this means your trimmer's weight is inboard for any trimming - not good in heavier air;

    - Also true, can't get him on the rail thats for sure, but I would probably put up with it for club racing and the better ability for short handed if I went with the 50.

3) position of primaries and mainsheet winch - your jib trimmer and main trimmer are going to hate each other after racing because they'll be banging into each other every single tack - why Bene put these in-line athwart-ships is beyond me;

    - Also agree, in an attempt to make the boat easy for short handed control they have failed here, should have the primaries futher forw, it certainly will require some discipline on the part of both trimmers to get a system going that avoids each other.

4) mast height - too short - don't know if Bene have a taller performance rig (carbon even?) - maybe you know?

    - Specs call up nearly same height as 470 for aluminium & the carbon rig is larger. Standard rig has larger main area and much large jib area than 470, even I suspect with 140% on 470 & if it can be sheeted properly, the Bene has about same or larger jib at 70m2. Total sail area with stand rig they quote as 139m2 against 124m2 for 470 albeit with only the 105% jib.

What I'm struggling with now is the absence of coachroof winches and traveller on the 470e and how to rectify this. The shorthanded capabilities of the 470e are immensely appealing though I must admit.

    - I am going to sail & see quality of both back to back, talk further to both reps about pro's & con's and wait for their possible suggestions for mods at overcoming the issues on both boats.

Will keep in touch.

cheers

Peter

Edited by Peter White - 17 March 2007 at 01:46

Hi Bill,

Very good dealer down here, Windcraft Yachts at Bayview in Sydney, link below, I speak to Damien he is very knowledgible and helpful, he is the one going to the Hanse factory in April & whom is asking questions on my behalf.

I agree that furler below deck line is very cool & neat.

http://windcraft.com.au/default.html

cheers
Peter

Hi Guys,

That ratio is one way of looking at it, yes. But there are several other factors involved. The two most important/impactful of these are: