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Simrad SimNet Noise Filter? |
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Ian Coverdale
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Joined: 19 June 2019 Location: Travelling Status: Offline Points: 311 |
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Posted: 15 June 2022 at 13:31 |
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Suspect your 508 is not visible due to data errors on SIMNET, not because of voltage problems.
SIMNET is 250kbs CANBUS which 'should' be good for a 250m cable length although SIMRAD quote 120m in their specification. Running cable up a 20m mast should be no problem at all. Capacitor cannot be 220 μF; that would kill the bitstream dead. Might be 220 pF or 220 μF across the DC rather than data. Either way, have you tried removing it? Suspect SIMRAD had some poorly performing CANBUS interfaces in their early instruments which is why modern instruments handbooks make no mention of the 'noise filter' requirement. |
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Ian & Andrea
SV Gabrielle (H445) Liveaboards - currently Montenegro. www.facebook.com/sailinggabrielle |
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SimonGH
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Joined: 08 September 2021 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Posted: 15 June 2022 at 14:25 |
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Actually it's the opposite. Right now there is no "filter", just that thing I posted (the small "plug" with the red end, which i suspect is just a termination resistor). From the pictures it definitely looks like a 220uF capacitor (the shape is consistent, it's not a small pico cap). I'll know more when it shows up - as I think you mentioned, it's not a very common part and was difficult to find. So with or without the additional terminator that is currently installed, the 508 acts the same. Its solid while the SimNet is powered up, but will not come back to life after a power cycle. Makes no discernible difference if that plug is installed in the 3-prong connector under the mast step. The very curious thing is that without that terminator installed, powering down the network takes a very long time. I have an extra Triton2 at the Nav station (that is powered only by the SimNet bus) and when you turn off power to the network, it remains on for a long time (minutes). If the terminator is installed, the network powers down "faster" in less than a minute. But either way it seems strange? This is the red-tipped terminator, so I don't believe it has any capacitance, and technically shouldn't touch the power side of the bus cables. But that is the observed behavior. So when i'm back on the boat this weekend, I need to get out the multimeter and see what's going on...
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Ian Coverdale
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Joined: 19 June 2019 Location: Travelling Status: Offline Points: 311 |
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Posted: 15 June 2022 at 14:38 |
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Intesrested to hear what you find ... none of this makes any sense!
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Ian & Andrea
SV Gabrielle (H445) Liveaboards - currently Montenegro. www.facebook.com/sailinggabrielle |
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SimonGH
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Joined: 08 September 2021 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Posted: 15 June 2022 at 16:42 |
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Totally agree. There is something fishy going on. I'm curious to your statement about the bus vs voltage? I guess since it's working the implication is that there is sufficient voltage getting to the mast top? Why should it "come to life" when you un-plug/plug it in, vs just turn the power on...?
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Ian Coverdale
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Joined: 19 June 2019 Location: Travelling Status: Offline Points: 311 |
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Posted: 16 June 2022 at 14:29 |
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The only way to be sure of voltage at masthead is to go aloft with a multimeter!
SIMRAD do not quote current consumption for their SIMNET powered products; they quote something called Network Load (NL) where 1NL is 50mA. Cannot find NL figure for 508; previous generation wind sensor (IS12) is 2NL = 100mA max so assume never generation is same or less? Also assuming your mast cable is the standard 30m, actual power wire length is twice this at 60m, and SIMRAD used minimum recommended NMEA2000 cable CSA of 0.38mm2 then voltage drop for 100mA on 0.38mm2 over 60m is 0.64V. Even if SIMRAD used half the cable CSA, voltage drop would ~10% which could be just fine? Does your MFD have NMEA2000 diagnostic tool which shows error rates? |
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Ian & Andrea
SV Gabrielle (H445) Liveaboards - currently Montenegro. www.facebook.com/sailinggabrielle |
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SimonGH
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Joined: 08 September 2021 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Posted: 16 June 2022 at 15:52 |
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Yes, the B&G's have a diagnostic page. It shows single digit "fastpacket errors", everything else is 0 and the bus load is around 17%. I guess I can measure the voltage at the bottom and assume a certain voltage drop. So it would only really be an issue if the voltage at the bottom was pretty low (like 11v). My noise filter is arriving today, I'll swap that in first and see what happens. I'm still also going to verify one, robust N2k power tap. I have a N2K ShipModule to USB adapter (not installed), so theoretically I could examine it further on a laptop (I assume there are some pc based diagnostic tools?). I also have an oscilloscope so I could really get all technical on it and see the shape of the signal. That panbo article goes into it a bit: ![]() ... screen #1 shows a very short,
simple network with no terminating resistors — which at least partially
accounts for the ringing that follows the nice square NRZ waves, as
demonstrated in screen #2, in which the same backbone has some
terminator-style resistance added. Screen #3 shows what’s actually
happening with 13 active sensors and about 60 meters
of SimNet cabling. Apparently it works, but those waves are looking a
little raggedy. Or were until he installed a SimNet Noise Filter as seen
in screen #4... Edited by SimonGH - 16 June 2022 at 15:56 |
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Ian Coverdale
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Joined: 19 June 2019 Location: Travelling Status: Offline Points: 311 |
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Posted: 16 June 2022 at 16:18 |
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Very interesting. I can see affect of 'filter' but don't actually think trace 3 is that bad!
SIMRAD break some CANBUS rules which can have detrimental affect on data quality. For example, CANBUS spec states maximum dropper length (distance from device to main backbone) of 0.3m where my SIMRAD compass came with 5.5m cable which I cut back to minimum. We have 18 SIMNET/NMEA2000 devices over ~40m backbone with no problems so it is possible to make it work effectively. Be interested in you experience with that new filter.
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Ian & Andrea
SV Gabrielle (H445) Liveaboards - currently Montenegro. www.facebook.com/sailinggabrielle |
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SimonGH
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Joined: 08 September 2021 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Posted: 16 June 2022 at 20:33 |
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So I definitely don’t have the filter. The one I ordered just arrived and looks like this: ![]() The filter just arrived and it doesn’t look anything like the termination plug that’s in there now. |
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SimonGH
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Joined: 08 September 2021 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Posted: 19 June 2022 at 21:27 |
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Sure enough - I installed the "noise filter", PN 24006934, and the issue resolved itself. I can power the network on and off and the wind sensor returns.
The other part was definitely another terminator only, no capacitor. Strange.
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Ian Coverdale
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Joined: 19 June 2019 Location: Travelling Status: Offline Points: 311 |
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Posted: 21 June 2022 at 00:35 |
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Pleased you have it sorted!!
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Ian & Andrea
SV Gabrielle (H445) Liveaboards - currently Montenegro. www.facebook.com/sailinggabrielle |
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